We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
THH for the masses Options
 
Kumarajiva
#1 Posted : 7/10/2020 8:14:53 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 103
Joined: 05-Apr-2019
Last visit: 14-May-2024
As Banisteriopsis Caapi is not widely available (and not really sustainable anyway) to the masses, we have to fallback to Peganum Harmala
as our main source for Harmala alkaloids.

The main benefit of Banisteriopsis Caapi is that during preparation of traditional brews the final result is often ends up with a mix of
three alkaloids: Harmine, Harmaline and TetraHydroHarmine. Now there is no clear info on why it happens, could very well be because of
prolonged boiling of acidic solution in metallic containers produces some hydrogen and this hydrogen reduces the Harmaline into THH,
or could be for some other reason (maybe something in caapi?)

All i know for sure that Harmaline -> TetraHydroHarmine reduction is possible and TetraHydroHarmine is very desirable substance in your
pharma or aya brews. And this is what we are going to focus on this thread. How to get THH with minimal risk of contaminating the final
product with possible toxins.

Over the time various reduction ideas have popped on nexus. Some of them use well know reduction techniques (Zinc in acidic environment),
Others propose something exotic like: boiling harmaline in ascorbic acid (as reduced agent) for prolonged time (wasnt proven to work).
Another idea was using sodium borohydride on harmaline dissolved in ethanol (methanol) which is another well known reduction path.

I have explored the Zinc path in both Acetic Acid and Orthophosphoric Acid and had good results.
Now, Both Acetic and Orthophosphoric yield the THH, but Acetic reduction takes about 18 hours, while Orthophosphoric completes in about 30 minutes.
Acetic reduction happens at room temperature while Orthophosphoric requires heating up the solution to get reduction going fast.

Both of the methods described above yield THH, but they are also accompanied by reasonable paranoia, as Zinc dust available from common sources
is ALWAYS of suspicious quality and most probably contains Lead and Cadmium contamination.
The possible risk of introducing Lead and Cadmium into your system (Both accumulate and cause nerve damage and are carcinogenic) is a major blocker
for us. It makes the THH not worth the effort and too dangerous health-wise.

The heavy metal contamination can be tackled by multiple cycles of AB reduction with ammonia/hydrocloric acid (about 4-5 cycles) to reach acceptable
levels of contamination, but this results in the loss of about 50% of the yield and the whole process becomes way too complicated for kitchen chemistry.

Now, the sodium borohydride in methanol/ethanol path is much cleaner than using metallic reduction (toxic contamination-wise) but the substance is not
cheap and not easy to get, so here is another blocker. (Also, using methanol in the kitchen is a NO-NO)

Luckily, we have an alternative path, which is cleanest of them all and if my current experiment succeeds it will be a game-changer for folks with
kitchen labs who want to experience THH.
The reduction of Harmaline->THH is actually done by the hydrogen which is being released when metal comes into contact with acid. There is another
way to get hydrogen - electrolysis. During the water electrolysis both Oxygen and Hydrogen are being created, and both
the reduction of Harmaline->THH and oxidation of THH->Harmaline will be taking place in the electrolytic chamber, but luckily the equilibrium is shifted
in reduction direction. (We have discussed the theory in chat and it seems legit).
Now, what it means in practice is that we dont need any complex electroliser setup to achieve the goal, a pair of graphite plates and some sulphuric/orthophosphoric
weak solution and an old cellphone charger will suffice. The only contamination (assuming the acid of choice was clean) would be some graphite flakes at the bottom
of the flask, but those can be filtered out easily.

I am going to run the experiment tomorrow, and hope for success.
Updates will follow.

P.S
I am not completely happy with the wording of this thread, so edits will follow.
Also, have to upload some pictures.
Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 7/10/2020 9:21:46 PM

Boundary condition

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 8617
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 07-Nov-2024
Location: square root of minus one
Wishing you success in your forthcoming experiment, eagerly awaiting news of the results Thumbs up




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Triglav
#3 Posted : 7/11/2020 7:54:30 AM

In the gap between thoughts nonconceptual wisdom shines continuously.


Posts: 207
Joined: 16-Sep-2017
Last visit: 11-Mar-2024
Location: ⚗ alembic ⚗
Thanks for experimenting and creating a thread in the forums. Wink Thumbs up

I'm very interested in seeing the results! Also I intend to build my own little electrolysis setup with which I can play with. Smile
 
Jagube
#4 Posted : 7/11/2020 9:17:08 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1111
Joined: 18-Feb-2017
Last visit: 12-Jul-2024
gogamoga wrote:
The heavy metal contamination can be tackled by multiple cycles of AB reduction with ammonia/hydrocloric acid (about 4-5 cycles) to reach acceptable
levels of contamination, but this results in the loss of about 50% of the yield and the whole process becomes way too complicated for kitchen chemistry.

How did you conclude that it takes 4-5 cycles?

I think blue.magic has posted results showing that one reduction cycle, ammonia precipitation and a dilute ammonia wash cleans it up sufficiently. She used a heavy metal detector and after the wash it didn't show detectable levels of heavy metals, whereas the post reduction solution was contaminated indeed.

Anyway, looking forward to your electrolysis results.
 
Kumarajiva
#5 Posted : 7/12/2020 6:35:43 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 103
Joined: 05-Apr-2019
Last visit: 14-May-2024
Here we go: https://streamable.com/qmi3sg
Going to run it for 12 hours and check results.

2 Hours in: https://streamable.com/uczid6
Stuff got darker

Jagube wrote:
How did you conclude that it takes 4-5 cycles?

I followed the same principle they use in homeopathy - dilssolving, taking fraction, dilluting - repeat.
4-5 repetitions should reduce the concentration of heavy metal contamination by 10^5
Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 
Kumarajiva
#6 Posted : 7/13/2020 11:48:40 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 103
Joined: 05-Apr-2019
Last visit: 14-May-2024
Failed miserably.

I think i made the H2SO4 way too concentrated (PH Meter dropped to zero)
Next round will be with the salt bridge and more gentle solution.

Original Materials



Started as nice orangy soup ended up with black smelly poison



Yielded black percipitaion and one of the electrodes have disintegrated
Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 
Kumarajiva
#7 Posted : 7/19/2020 3:08:50 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 103
Joined: 05-Apr-2019
Last visit: 14-May-2024
Update

So, i have constructed new electrolyzer (This time two separate chambers with the bridge),
and have loaded it with some harmalas just to run a test.
It seems that the degradation is happening on anode - the right chamber (Where the oxygen is produced).
The cathode - the left chamber (Where hydrogen is produced stays clean).
Some of harmalas are migrating into anode chamber via the bridge.
More updates will follow.

P.S.
Originally, the solution in right chamber was transparent (H2SO4 0.1M).
The color is from the degradation and running the electrolysis for 2 days at 12V 6.6mA

Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 
Triglav
#8 Posted : 7/19/2020 5:17:14 PM

In the gap between thoughts nonconceptual wisdom shines continuously.


Posts: 207
Joined: 16-Sep-2017
Last visit: 11-Mar-2024
Location: ⚗ alembic ⚗
Good news! This look promising. I does make sense that a more concentrated presence of oxygen will degrade the product now that I think about it.

 
exquisitus
#9 Posted : 7/20/2020 4:04:42 AM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 191
Joined: 30-Jul-2012
Last visit: 12-Jun-2024
Here is a tip. In Russian electrolysis research contactless electrolysis with isolated electrodes is a huge thing. Truth be told, I never read any publication about that not in Russian, so I have no idea what the proper wording in English would be... The best selling device in Russia I believe is called Izumrud (изумруд), emerald in English.

And here is a pro tip. Carbon electrodes with as higher percentage of fullerenes as you can get do wonders, literally. In fact that's supposed to be a very valuable and secret "know-how" piece of info, but have it for free anyway 🤓 For the advance of science, so to speak.
 
Kumarajiva
#10 Posted : 7/30/2020 9:59:50 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 103
Joined: 05-Apr-2019
Last visit: 14-May-2024
Fail

After running the electrolysis for a week, anode solution became black (like in the first attempt)
cathode solution stayed clear, but it does not seem that hydrogen have reduced the harmaline.
Basified it with ammonia and pointed the UV torch at it - produced distinct harmaline luminiscence.

Need to explore different path.
Gate Gate Pāragate Pārasaṃgate Bodhi Svāhā
 
Elrik
#11 Posted : 7/31/2020 6:10:42 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 377
Joined: 19-Aug-2017
Last visit: 15-Jan-2021
I see several problems in this thread.
• Zinc need not be contaminated with cadmium and lead, ultra-pure zinc is available and is what is recommended for this very reason
• If alkaloids are contaminated with heavy metals your homeopathy math may not apply, as one of the fears is the alkaloids could form double salts with the heavy metals, trapping them into the product through every stage. I have not yet read the data collected by blue.magic, that sounds cool
• Electrolysis doesn't only do what you want and isn't restricted to inorganic reactions, it does everything that is energetically favorable under the conditions. This could include breaking down the alkaloids, and/or transforming them into new alkaloids. Our ß-carbolines are very close, chemically speaking, to alkaloids known or expected to be potently neurotoxic

Experimentation is good, but Van der Sypt named his paper 'harm reduction' for a reason Wink
 
Jules_supertramp
#12 Posted : 2/24/2021 8:08:09 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 34
Joined: 29-Mar-2020
Last visit: 17-May-2024
Kumarajiva wrote:
(...)


Cool that you actually tried this, because i thought of this for a while. I wonder if one could just use Magnesium instead of Zinc?
Or what if you collect the H2 from the Cathode and let it bubble through the Harmaline solution?Smile

Cheers
...so forth and so on...
 
BongQuixote
#13 Posted : 2/24/2021 10:32:33 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 150
Joined: 14-Nov-2020
Last visit: 27-Jul-2023
Location: Sweden
Jules_supertramp wrote:
Kumarajiva wrote:
(...)


Cool that you actually tried this, because i thought of this for a while. I wonder if one could just use Magnesium instead of Zinc?

Yes, it works and I've done it. I got some magnesium acetate contamination (non toxic), but the conversion was clean. No harmaline crystals detected when observed through microscope, and bioassay shows it is active and devoid of the unpleasant harmaline side-effects. I still have to do more work to see if I can make the product cleaner. You can read the details in the VDS thread in the Collaborative Research Project subforum. Cheers!
 
downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 2/26/2021 3:01:40 PM

Boundary condition

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 8617
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 07-Nov-2024
Location: square root of minus one
Jules_supertramp wrote:
Or what if you collect the H2 from the Cathode and let it bubble through the Harmaline solution?
This would require addition of a catalyst such as Pd/C (palladium supported on carbon) in order for it to work.

The electrolytic reduction might stand a better chance of working if more attention was paid to the choice of cathode material. A good one would be metallic mercury, were it not for the fact that this utterly defeats the whole point of avoiding toxic metal contamination from the use of zinc powder!

The carbon cathodes could also be plated with a suitable metal before attempting another reduction, and another thing to be aware of is the current density on the electrodes - that is, the electrical current divided by the surface area of the cathode.

Information on this subject is best obtained by referring to a textbook on electrochemistry.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.037 seconds.