So SWIM has been interested in ingesting his extracted crystals with some syrian rue, and has been researching around for the right dosages..



the problem is, there is so much conflicting info around. Syrian rue everybody talks about around 3gs, so thats ok.. but dmt dosage is the problem..

for example.. in ott´s book ´ayahuasca analogues´, he mentions the analysis of typical ayahuasca drinks, which seem to contain about 30mg per dosage.. Then to replicate the experiments using oral freebase dmt, I seem to remember (the book is not with me anymore) he saying that 40mg was a good dosage


Now, researching on the net, people say doses so much higher than this, like, some quote 100mg minimum, the ideal being between 100 to 150mg... but el ka bong here says 80mg is already a lot, making him unable to walk..

The difference between 40mg and 150 is too big, there must be something wrong, no?

Now, what is up with all these differences? Is it the difference in purities? What are SWIY´s experiences with it?


and how comes in ayahuasca dosages the analysis shows 30mgs but freebase dmt dosages seem higher than this? Maybe because in ayahuasca cerimonies the dosages are repeated over some time, and oral dmt dosages people are taking all at once?

This has had me curious as well. I only have a satisfactory answer to one part of the question:



The thing to remember about ayahuasca brews is that there are a lot more plants brewed in than just caapi and the local DMT-containing plant. There is very often tobacco in the brew, and sometimes Brugmansia even. I don't recall where I read it (I think it was in a Hofmann/Schultes article), but the list of plants that were commonly added to ayahuasca brews was very extensive. I imagine these other plants account for this discrepency, especially with the MAOI to amplify their effects... it could easily lower the threshold for experiencing the DMT dosage.

As to the discrepency between Ott's report of 40 mg, and the online advice of 100-150 mgs, I really don't know.

Another issue is Caapi vs Rue. Rue does not contain tetrahydroharmine whereas Caapi does. Another issue is with Caapi brews some shamans make them "vine heavy" which decreases the amount of dmt containing plants needed for full effects.

Personally I have tried 80mgs dmt with 3.5grams rue seeds...this provided a threshold experience. I have tried different amounts of Caapi with 60, 80, 120, 150, and 250mgs of dmt. 250mgs seems to be a decent doseage.

My suggestion is to take your rue and start with 60mgs of dmt. You can always add more. It may take a few tries to get the best dosage for you, but better than having an experience that is way too intense and turns you off from oral dmt for good.

IMO there's no such thing as too much spice. What's the worst that could happen, hyperspatial brain lizards crawl in through your earholes and spiral-fuck your cerebrum with etheric fractal generation tentacles?

But seriously, there's more going on here than just maoi + spice. First, it depends on how much maoi you got goin on. Second it depends on who you are. Third it depends on time of day, planetary alignment, enzymatick levels, and whatever the spirits have in store for you at the time. Plus a whole lot of other shit. Even in the same individual, the same dose will never produce the same results. So like a colon said, start small and work your way up from there.

Or just go all out, and then work your way down

But seriously, too much spice can tend to make the experience more "confusing." The traditional shamanic way as I understand it is generally to use more vine than leaf. Lately Swim has been following this idea, and using more freebase rue extract than mimosa extract. 300mg harmaloids + 200mg juremagick is his standard dose these daze, but that's a slightly impure (AND COMPLETELY NONTOXIC!) extract aquired by this tek: http://www.dmt-nexus.me/...s&m=10933&#10933

Just to sound over-safety conscious - dmt taken orally is kind of incapacitating - you won't be able to walk well, motor,sensory and memory functions of the brain get all loosensed up - you might speak nonsense ... Prepare to be that way !

When you are 'saturated' by MAOI (3.5 g rue seed extracted) this is what I'd say is a scale-range for doses;

low dose is 0.3 mg dmt-freebase per lb/ body weight (slight CEV, pleasant body feelings).

Medium dose is 0.5 mg dmt per lb/ body weight. (CEV and OEV, possible nausea to manage.)

High dose is > 0.8 mg dmt per lb /body weight. (CEV / OEV, synesthesia in every way..!)

On a dose that 1.0 mg dmt/lb or more, and you'll want your MAOIs back if you can't surrended to the imagination soup, and ride out what ever comes up and out !

I once ate 150 mg dmt (1.0 mg/lb), and ended up 'consoling' myself (ie - happily tripping hard!) by recalling how the young woman who took 600mg dmt rectally, described her trip as similarly to mine - peaks were coming in series, wave after wave of 'psychic-blender' with lulls in between. You have to learn to 'ride' those peaks ... until MAOIs kick back in.

The physical symptoms of pleasant-tremors are also present during onset and while coming down, and nausea is likely 50 % of the time, so break the dmt into 30 -60 mg sub-doses when you swallow them, 5 min appart.

^ This really shows how YMMV!

I am a 285lb guy...and 1mg/kg for me would be 129mgs. However even with full MAOI inhibition 129mgs is not a heavy dose...it is a mild dose with 4-5 hours (for rue, 2-3 for Caapi) of mild tracers...some disintigration type visuals and mild CEV visions. Nothing at all to "ride out."

Everyone really does have a different reaction...and each person gets a different reaction each time even with the same dosage. I have never had a purge, even with high dose Caapi...again everyone is different.

Here is an interesting note from K. Trout:

"A misunderstood point is that while harmine orally activates DMT and prolongs its duration, it significantly diminishes the intensity of the effects rather than actually potentiating them."

From

http://www.erowid.org/li...ya_sec4_entheogens.shtml

Total rubbish. I'm surprised to read that from Trout. Harmine most definitely potentiates the effects of DMT. If you take harmine orally or even smoke it and then smoke DMT, the trip is strengthened and prolonged. I think most people on this forum can vouch for that.

indeed SWIM can

150mg DMT fumarate works well enough for SWIM, at least on 300mg of crude rue extract.

I was told of a brew that was made with 100g of vine each and 100mg spice per person. The brew however was not all drunk at once, it was split into 3 cups and taken at 2-3 hour intervals which apparently worked very well for all who participated.
I certainly think there is more going on than just MAO inhibition with the vine, as vine seems to give a stronger experience.
I was really surprised when I read how much people were taking with the rue, maybe it might pay to break it up into doses over the evening and see how that compares to one big one.

El Ka Bong was referring to 1mg/lb not per kg - that'd be 285mg for you which I would definitely call a heavy dose.

For freebase and full MAOI inhibition (about 200mg harmine/harmaline) 40mg freebase spice was more then enough for SWIM.

..whereas 400mg of harmala alkaloids + 100mg freebase spice give only a threshold experience for SWIM's FOAF. That is, just minor visuals, that end up pretty much quickly.

There seems to be no consensus on oral dmt dosage and it can only be learned by experience and those dreadful and frustrating trip-not-starting experiences.

But now this guy has been thinking on a somewhat different way of calculating dosages; He gets a batch, extract some amount of it using FASA (total alkaloid extraction) and notices the yield. He then plans to eat the amount of alkaloids contained in 10g of the batch.

If the batch yielded a total of 2% alkaloids (including the oxides and jungle spice stuff), his dose will be 200mg of freebase spice (or equivalent in salt form), corresponding to the amount of alkaloids he would be consuming in a 10g MHRB decoction.

Is that smoked or oral?

SWIM doesn't have much spice left, so he smoked 15mg on about 3 droppers of Harmaline Tincture 5X and broke through quite nicely. Orally might take just a bit more, but he needs more spice to see.

Even taking a Harmaline extract orally and then smoking DMT, it is night/day.

Sorry, I misread.

Even so, 285 is a full blown visual experience for me.

Oral.

Curious though I don't understand why people need to take so much DMT orally to get any effects? SWIM would have been scared shitless and ran into a hole puking his guts out praying to the uniserve to let SWIM live had he taken 100mg of DMT on 200mg of harmine/harmaline.

Seriously though why such high doses of DMT? Once someone reaches full MAOI inhibition the DMT dose should not need to be so high. Are people sure of the quality of their MAOI inhibitors? Different people probably have different MAOI systems (less and more active then others) but could the variation really be that high?

SWIM has good luck around the 50mg mark with only 150mg harmine

he wants to try the 200mg THH HCl plus 20mg of dmt fumarate

or possibly the 70mg THH HCl with 7mg dmt fumarate with 2-3grams cacao beans

^^I find the variation in MAOI inhibition very interesting. Could explain a number of mental conditions this type of thing. Very very interesting. But yes for SWIM he would not really ever take more 50mg spice while on full MAOI inhibition (about 150-200mg harmine/harmaline for SWIM). But SWIM is a bit sensitive to the spice meaning he doesn't need much for it too work. Friends who have joined SWIM also need a bit more.