Hello. I have extensive background in the conventional western religion, but for many years I have believed in the spiritual world only as a theoretical possibility. However after my latest trips I seem to have got a glimpse of that world as something more real. Today I felt a certain spiritual vibe in a song I listened to I haven't sensed in years.

I have left my religion and don't know how to frame these feelings or how to navigate in this world. I don't want to have unnecessary fear, but nor do I want to be reckless. I also think I should be prepared before taking another trip if we're going deeper into this topic.

So, I'd appreciate if anyone here would want to share their experiences or could give some opinion or advice.

Thank you!

If your background is in Western religion, investigate the Neoplatonic tradition.

The three greatest and most foundational Neoplatonists were Plotinus, Proclus, and Saint Dionysius. Plotinus and Proclus were pagan theologians whose philosophies became foundational for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Christianity is the most thoroughly Neoplatonic. The Christian Saint Dionysius was a direct student in the pagan schools - he would have studied directly, in person, under the pagans. The Christian Saint Augustine could not intellectually make any sense of Christianity before he read Plotinus, and learned how to decipher the mythological imagery using Neoplatonic philosophy. The deeper Saint Augustine entered Christianity the deeper he entered Neoplatonism, and vice versa.

Plato and his student Aristotle were the ones who began this tradition. But starting with Plotinus (the beginning of Neoplatonism), it became more mystical. Plato and Aristotle (especially Aristotle) were more like scientists trying to figure out the principle of existence. For Aristotle figuring out God would be comparable to Einstein figuring out E=MC2. It wasn’t so much about “union with God” for Aristotle, although Plato seems to have had room for that line of thought in his philosophy. By the way, all Platonic philosophy includes Aristotle. All Platonic/Aristotelian philosophers mix the thought of the two founders in different ways and to varying degrees.

From Plotinus onward, Platonic philosophy became a mystical philosophy dedicated almost exclusively to union with God, which they called Henosis.

Western religions when they are demythologized are basically Neoplatonic religions, mostly. Just to reference Plotinus’ contribution to Christian theology, the “Father” is pure Unity a.k.a. the One, the “Son/Logos” is Intellect, “angels” are the individual forms of reason contained in the Intellect (the individual metaphysical structures of reality itself), the “Holy Spirit” is the Universal Soul... etc.

Saint Augustine, Saint Dionysius, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Bonaventure, Meister Eckhart —— all Christian Platonists.

Moses Maimonides - Jewish theologian mostly influenced by Aristotle

Philo - Jewish theologian mostly influenced by Plato whose writings may have influenced the author of John’s Gospel in the bible (he lived at the same time as Jesus). Yup, you read that right. Whoever wrote John's Gospel may have been a Platonist.

Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Tufyl —- all Platonic/Aristotelian/Neoplatonic philosophers who were also foundational Islamic theologians.

Platonic/Aristotelian/Neoplatonic philosophies are the literal demythologized accounts of the Western religions. If you want to understand what the deep thinkers of the Western religions really meant, study it. If you want to go straight to mysticism, start with Plotinus. I’d personally recommend Plato and Aristotle first, but some people just want to go straight to mysticism.

Neoplatonism is very similar (though not identical) to some Eastern mystical traditions such as Hinduism’s Vedanta tradition or Tibetan Buddhism’s Dzogchen tradition.

So basically I recommend:
Plato
Aristotle
Plotinus
Proclus
Saint Dionysius

After that the history of Western theology is your oyster, so to speak. No matter whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or a pagan who somehow time traveled to the present - these are the founders of Western spiritual philosophy.

And just to be clear: for any educated theologian worth their salt, things like: the world being six billion years old, evolution, and all the other things that bone headed creationist idiots reject - are no problem. The world is not six thousand years old, and nobody at the Vatican in Rome thinks it is. Not one bishop. Nada. For that matter, Saint Augustine himself, who lived 1700 years ago, did not believe the world was created in seven days - and obviously not because he had access to studies on fossils (lol). That was already interpreted as a mythological symbol of a deeper philosophical truth about the structure of divine creation 1700 years ago, based just on philosophical reasoning and careful reading of the texts. Most of the bible is interpreted this way by orthodox religious philosophers. The Muslim philosophers and Jewish philosophers have also been on board with this mode of interpretation since ancient/medieval times. Some things are interpreted literally by orthodox religious thinkers (for example, for Christians, the resurrection of Jesus is interpreted literally) - but a huuuuuuuuge amount is interpreted symbolically and always has been. Like the world being made in seven days. That is interpreted as a symbolic story by the orthodox theologians of the three religions. Creationist morons don't read history. I don't know if that's why you left your religion or not, but - there you go.

Last: I am not a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim. I personally am a Buddhist. But I have studied quite a lot of religious philosophy in general.

The above is a reading list so you can have a framework for how to understand Western spirituality/mysticism.

In terms of what to actually do on psychedelics, while tripping - my recommendation is meditation. It is my personal practice. To do it successfully while tripping requires considerable effort. But, going through the reading list I just posted also requires considerable effort, and when talking about encounters with the ultimate, one should not expect that any less be demanded.

To meditate successfully on psychedelics, learn how to meditate sober.... for at least two hours at a time. Start 30 minutes a day (sober), until you feel comfortable going longer, then do it for an hour a day... an hour and a half... until you can do it two hours at a time. When you can sit two hours every day without too much mental discomfort, you're ready to meditate on psychedelics. It's like learning guitar. If you just keep on mashing your brain at it, the neural connections for long term single pointed focus form, just like your fingers learn to play chords if you mash your fingers a certain way on a guitar fret over and over and over. Just one day it clicks. It's a lot of painful monotony until that day, but like playing guitar - it's worth it.

With a sufficient level of unwavering focus over a sufficient period of time, the psychedelic experience transforms, and goes beyond "visuals" and into visions. It is much deeper. Indigenous traditions that use psychedelics don't do breath meditation as far as I know, but they do do other things like drumming, dancing, singing, chanting - usually in relatively simple, repetetive ways, for really extended periods of time. The principle behind all of these techniques for mystical induction are basically the same. Sustained, focused repetition, for multiple hours.

You don't have to sit cross legged if it hurts your knees, you can sit kneeling on a meditation cushion with your legs under the cushion on a bed or something so your shins/knees don't hurt on the floor, lol. The meditation cushion is under your butt, and on top of your calves. You are sitting kneeling on the backs of your legs/heels this way. I find the cross legged thing for periods of time this long hurts the knees something fierce.

I prefer eyes closed (as is done in the oldest school of Buddhism, Theravada). Some do eyes open. In Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, eyes are generally open. Whichever lets you focus more, pick that one.

Here are the foundation instructions for how to meditate in Buddhist tradition. This is the oldest meditation sutta in Buddhism.

https://www.accesstoinsi...taka/mn/mn.118.than.html


In order of how easy it is to sit and meditate on them, with the easiest first and the least easy last:

Ayahuasca/Ayahuasca analogues
Psilocybin Mushrooms
Mescaline Cactus
LSD

The nausea from ayahuasca and cactus might be a barrier.

Finally: look up "dieta". Basically you want bland food. Sugary, salty, spicy, greasy - no. Eat bland healthy food. Avoiding sex is encouraged for males, but some shamans say it is not so important for females. A standard dieta lasts three days before and after a psychedelic experience. I mentioned the prohibition on sex to a neuroscience major once, they speculated it may be because of the loss of testosterone. Shamans just say spirits don't like the smell of sex the same way they don't like the smell of non-bland food. Shamans also say to avoid pork.

Good luck, and if you want results - be disciplined.

One last note: if you want a framework for spiritual thought beyond the West, here are the most foundational texts of the most prominent faiths:

Hinduism:
The Upanishads
The Bhagavad Gita

Buddhism:
The Pali Suttas
Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā

Taoism:
The Tao Te Ching
The Zhuangzi

Of all the authors I have listed though, I would probably recommend Plato the most. He does a better job at teaching how to inquire into the deep questions in life than any of the other authors. And he wrote dialogues, which are accessible and well written as well as profound. They just read like stories of conversations among friends, just like anyone sitting around smoking joints together and speculating about life would have. Plato is the true forefather of all Western thought. Truly, I recommend just purchasing the complete works (there is an edition by Hackett), reading it in its entirety, and making your way forward from there.

Thank you OneIsEros very much for these insights! I am actually somewhat familiar with some of the authors and have been studying these things on an intellectual level, but I feel I have suppressed my intuition and spiritual sensitivity through over rationalizing everything. I think my interest for the psychedelics has risen from the will to go beyond rational and it feels like it's about to happen.

I think these traditions you mentioned give a better point of reference than the new age thought that so often comes up when reading about these things on the internet. It might be a very good idea to go back to these older and deeper traditions in search for understanding and tools for developing the spiritual mind.

It's the excess rationalizing that has been the problem for accessing these ideas before I think. The same applies to meditation which has been very difficult for me previously. However I have had some profound success (for brief moments) while meditating in an altered state of consciousness, but it certainly is a skill I can and should build.

This all is so new and confusing, but I think I got some very good insights now on how I can go deeper safely and expect results.

In that case I’d suggest just going hard on the meditation. I find it’s almost a mechanical process, not so much about insight as much as just straight being absorbed in one pointed awareness on the breath for a very long time. It takes care of itself if you put enough time in. You have to do it a lot in your sober life, and initially it is difficult to do it on psychedelics....

But if you do, somewhere along the way it changes. It is like rubbing sticks together: if you’d never done it before the notion that this would eventually make fire would seem ludicrous. But it does, as long as you do it correctly and with sufficient dedication, and it does it reliably. The doors will open to the entheogenic beyond the psychedelic.

But, it takes hours. Multiple hours, in a single sitting. It’s not easy. But it will work. You just have to do it a lot. It’s more like learning to play guitar than learning philosophy. You just do it until your brain forms the neural connections for that sort of focus, the same way it develops the neural connections for playing chords with your fingers by just doing the same finger motions over and over and over. It is painful and will take many hours over many weeks or months, and you have to do it every day for a long time each day. But doing it with guitar, one day after weeks of clusmy blister inducing finger placements you had to look to do every time... your fingers just fly to where they’re supposed to go on their own. The neural connections formed because you just kept doing the same thing over and over. It just suddenly and abruptly clicks. Same thing happens with meditation. In Zen they call that “falling up”. It’s as spontaneous as falling down unexpectedly, only you went up instead of down.

I’ve been doing it for years, and at this point I actually find meditating is pleasurable. Zen doesn’t talk about that aspect a lot, but the Pali suttas do! Once you do it long enough meditation becomes very pleasurable. I look forward to my two hours every day now. But that took a long time to get there. At first it felt like scraping barnacles made of impatience and distraction off my brain and skull. It occasionally feels like that now, but it’s rare. At first it felt like I was setting my head on fire doing sittings that long. But that’s a good thing. Use your logic and your gratitude. Logically ask yourself, why would I stop doing this? I set the timer, there’s obviously nothing better to do, why would I logically check my phone, go do something, give up, say this is enough, etc etc etc. —— and then draw on gratitude for the seemingly immense period of time you have to just sit here and let these mental defilements burn themselves away. That impatience is not a flaw, it is a sign this is working. Let it exhaust itself. Grab it, hold it, don’t let go of it. You’re not avoiding it, you’re drawing it out and seeing who quits first. Grab that impatience and don’t let go, smile and watch it burn, and silently laugh knowing that it was always there and is now exposed and very not happy with what’s happening.

Give it time, and those feelings of impatience and distractions tire themselves out and die. And then.... there’s only focus. When you get to that state while tripping for a long time.... then there are visions. Not visuals.... visions. And healing.

The Christian worldview as I took it is notoriously dualistic. I've got lots of good spiritual advice from it and there are mystics who reach beyond the conventional religious thought like Meister Eckart. However, there is also a lot of induced fear about the consequences if you step outside the set boundaries. My main confusion stems from newfound spiritual experiences I cannot attribute to any particular "spirit". In my previous world view all such experiences would be labeled diabolical, which I now think is false. However, I still believe there is a real possibility of getting misguided by these experiences and entities existing in the spiritual realm should not be trusted blindly. What I seek is a positive contact with the unseen world while retaining my own spiritual sovereignty and that is something I'm still a little confused as I don't have same kind of strict rules as I used to have while believing in the Christian God.

In fact what I now think is that even the Christian God is an immature entity who has done both good and bad and has changed it's approach in the past. (Jung writes about this in the book Answer to Job.) Some of the Christian mystics have been able to reach beyond this entity and approach the Supreme. The neoplatonic influences are profound especially in the Eastern Orthodox teaching which I'm somewhat drawn to, but since I've lost so much because of the false dualism of conventional Chrisianity which I think stems from the biblical God-entity that is a path I'm not eager to follow anymore. There is much good and true, but it's too narrow and builds too much upon fear.

But yeah, I think agree that meditation is a key in growing up spiritually and developing a better intuition in these matters. Psychedelics can be of great use, but it's not something that comes automatically.

Just stick with the pagans then (Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Proclus). Their theologies are so important that Dante himself stuck them in the part of Hell that was basically just a peaceful, nice place where they could contemplate as far as reason alone could bring a person - no torture involved in that part of “Hell”, lol. You won’t really be deviating from your orthodoxy, and you won’t have to deal with the problems involved in embracing it too closely - and you’ll be getting the “good stuff” almost exclusively, lol. All mystical reasoning, no revelation/mythology. Just thought.

What you are describing with the “fluctuating, approach changing, imperfect Christian entity”, by the way, sounds like gnosticism. Something that both the pagan Neoplatonists and the orthodox Christians agreed on was that Gnosticism was stupid. Outside the gnostics themselves, you won’t find anyone in history who was sympathetic to that idea. Orthodox Christians loved Neoplatonic pagans, but they hated Christian gnostics - and so did the pagans. Nobody liked the gnostics. If you want to understand why that is, I suggest reading Plotinus’ “Against the Gnostics” treatise.

What you call “conventional Christianity” sounds more like uneducated Christianity, which is the majority of it. The actual religious philosophy is worth reckoning with.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, read Saint Dionysius. He was educated in person by the pagans, and is the most important saint in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. He also represents the culmination of pagan Neoplatonism. Paganism died out after him. His teacher was likely the final head of the pagan schools, a man named Damascius. Some have even speculated that he was the pagan Damascius himself writing under a pseudonym (which was not an uncommon practice). He is also canonically authoritative for the Roman Catholics as well.

Or, just jump into Buddhism. You might like that religion, its attitude seems closer to what you want. The Buddha taught that obedience to gods is a delusion that leads to suffering. You can find the most complete account of the Buddha’s teaching on that in this Pali sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsi...taka/mn/mn.049.than.html

Basic Teachings of the Buddha by Glenn Wallis is a nice short book of some select key Pali suttas if you want to check it out. (The Pali suttas are the earliest texts in Buddhism).

I used to be decidedly atheist coming from a Christian background. Now, as I've matured so much, I just accept that I don't know. But, sometimes, I hope people are right about the whole god thing.

DMT has only reinforced my position as not taking a position. I have a couple experiences that are uncertain to me, but my very spiritual friend (has literally seen the devil, talked to god, has a friend who's an empath, etc) says that those encounters were 100% real. Personally I've found peace with not knowing. It's a satisfying non-answer. Maybe we're not ready to see the secrets of the next place yet.

The two articles that Nick Sand wrote on DMT are the most illuminating thing I have ever read on the subject. Actually, they’re the only illuminating thing I’ve read on the subject of DMT.

http://psychedelicfronti...red-world-dmt-nick-sand/

http://psychedelicfronti...-bit-more-dmt-nick-sand/

I am not sure if you read it yet, but I edited the post above the one about Nick Sand's two articles. I added a little bit about Gnosticism, because what you described about the Christian God being "an immature entity who has done both good and bad and has changed it's approach in the past", and being "able to reach beyond this entity and approach the Supreme", was basically Gnosticism in a nutshell.

If you're going to explore all of this through a Christian lens, I would advise against Gnostic views. Gnosticism was vehemently rejected not only by the Christians themselves, but also by the Neoplatonic Pagans whom the Christians were so deeply inspired by. Plotinus wrote an entire treatise dedicated to repudiating Gnosticism.

Gnostics were basically the ancient world equivalent of new agey scientology. They weren't popular among contemplatives of any creed or religion, and there were good philosophical reasons for that, in my opinion.

In my opinion, what you have said so far indicates that you probably don't have enough understanding of Christianity to evaluate its tenets (and I mean its orthodox tenets, not its popular practice among "civilians" ).

If you are at all interested in this particular faith, I would advise that you start where Platonists always advise: in the knowledge that you do not know about it - and then, investigate it.

Feel free to form opinions as you investigate, but if those opinions are not informed by engaged study in the sorts of things I have listed, I would not call that investigating, I would just call that opinionating. Opinionating will lead to ideas like Gnosticism, or notions that people like Eckhart were "unorthodox", when in fact orthodox theologians like Eckhart are generally the ones the uninformed are most frightened of.

As my teacher, the leading scholar on Thomas Aquinas globally once said:
"I am so orthodox people think I'm heterodox."

(By the way, I can promise you that a guy like Meister Eckhart would have agreed with every scathing comment I have made about the Gnostics - guaranteed).

Your call though. It's your religion, not mine. My intention is just to draw to your attention that your vision of what this religion is, is not accurate. Because of that, it is basically impossible to meaningfully embrace or reject it from a vantage based in understanding it.

Only thing i like about Gnosticism is their approval of Gnosis aka self knowledge/understanding/realization of hidden esoteric and mystical truths that can be directly experienced. Other than that, i myself don't subscribe to Gnosticism.

Personally, i think esotericism, mysticism, philosophy, Gnosis, direct experience, and personal spirituality is all that's needed, though it'd be nice if there were a universal kind of religion based on inner knowing and spiritual experience/understanding that would cut to the core of the Human being, all Human beings.

That's just orthodox Western mysticism, Pagan, Jewish, Christian, or Islamic - not Gnosticism. The Neoplatonic term for that is "henosis", rougly "union with the One" ("Hen"=Greek word for "One" ).

Gnosticism is the idea that there is an "imperfect God" underneath the "Perfect God", and that you have to "get past the imperfect God" to the "perfect God". Gnosticism is, in a nutshell, a spiritual conspiracy theory. It is a paranoia. Pagans and Christians alike rejected it. The Christians liked the Pagans a lot more than they liked the Gnostics, and the Pagans in turn despised the Gnostics. It was paranoid conspiratorial gibberish to both of them.

True.

I do want to apologize for weighing in as heavily as I did on this thread. My reason for doing is just that, this is basically my wheelhouse, probably to a larger extent than the majority of people on this forum. To take a dedicatedly structured and disciplined approach to psychedelics is rare in the psychedelic community (outside indigenous communities), and I wanted to share the map I had to chart out myself over long years of study in many different traditions. I have lived in monasteries, I have studied with world scholars - there is a lot of bullshit in the way on the way, and it takes a long time to sort wheat from chaff. These are my findings.

Good luck, as you blaze your own trail.

Thank you, OneIsEros, I appreciate that.

I've not wanted to reveal too much about myself, but I have extensive background on the subject on an intellectual and academic level. It's been a couple of years now that I've been searching for an understanding based on my own experience and intuition instead of searching for a religion or philosophy that would give all the answers. I know many people oppose this kind of eclectism but that's the way I've decided to go. My reasoning behind this is that there are many questions that cannot be answered comprehensively on an intellectual level and intuitive knowledge is very difficult to convey with words only.

I sympathize some tenets of the Gnostic doctrine but I don't believe they have the whole package.

There is certain distinction between subjective and objective in religion and all philosophies. For example there may be two Christians who go to same church and on surface agree on the same doctrines, but one of them is spiritually very open and positive person who wants to lift other people up and the other one is very nasty one who mainly seeks to find errors in others. It's not just the religion itself but how it resonates in you. I believe all religion is ultimately subjective.

I believe you can live a genuinely spiritual life as Christian but for me there are so many things that resonate badly and have negative effect on my personality. I have spent years trying to resolve these issues, and I really wanted to retain my faith, but the moment came I had to give up.

So what I'm seeking now is wisdom, but not a philosophy that gives all the answers. I know that many spiritual authorities warn about this kind of individualism and there sure are risks, but I have seen the risks of suppressing individuality too.

The psychedelic renaissance opens up questions that have not been addressed too many times in the past. For the first time the mystical experience is available to everyone having the access to certain substances. I think it's a wonderful thing, but it's also something the humanity is not yet well prepared for. My deepest wish is that I could at some point contribute to this collective growth of mankind but for the time being I want to remain a student and a novice.

But you have certainly given me food for thought and certainly some pointers to deepen my understanding.

[ Sorry OneIsEros, I couldn't reply your pm as I am a new member. Have to work up the ladders I guess. ]