Thanks OneIsEros, I read those Sand articles and they enriched my perspective. Admittedly I have been prejudiced against smoked DMT for many years, one reason being my preference of whole plants over isolated alkaloids, the other being Terence's superficial descriptions, rightly or not from him I had got the impression that smoking DMT automatically takes you to a land of machine elves and self dribbling basketballs. Sand's explanation of the DMT experience is much more sensible and made me feel the specialness of this entheogen.

İt is true that chronic exposure to harmalas erases nauseating effects. I never ever feel nausea from the highest doses of rue. I am not sure if this is simply the body being accustomed to these substances or a certain level of purification achieved after a period of dedication. Perhaps both.

I'm aware some folks are proponents of "la purga" associated with ayahuasca/anahuasca. In addition, many are leery of using pharmacologics to ameliorate nausea + vomiting. That said, I have found ondansetron(Zofran, 5-HT3 antagonist) to be useful. Anti-histaminics such as meclizine(Bonine) may be effective. Indeed, used very judiciously, the anti-cholinergic effect from Datura seeds(3-4) can be anti-emetic. I've had best effect when these are used prophylactically.

Peace

IME, nausea is a sign of impurity either in the drinker or in the space or in the medicine. Vomiting serves to clear out this impurity. İt follows that impure medicine just adds additional, unnecessary purging and carries a blockage against going deeper. Tannins from the barks is one such impurity, İME.

I have a lot of respect for the research that Terence and more especially his brother Dennis did into mushrooms and ayahuasca, and they definitely contributed a lot in terms of teaching the world about how to cultivate Psilocybe Cubensis at home. But in terms of Terence’s perspective on the nature of psychedelics in general, I don’t have much regard for the guy. His ex-wife, Katherine McKenna, said with some disdain that he did not view entheogens as medicines, even though he was very aware that the cultures they communicated with personally viewed them as such. He seemed to basically view these things as high forms of entertainment because he simply enjoyed “weirdness”.

Sand did more DMT in an average month than McKenna did in his life. McKenna stated that he broke through a total of around 50 times in his life. Sand broke through, by his own account, countless thousands of times, with much deeper commitment and higher intention than McKenna. Sand made it clear than entheogenesis was medicinal, in his view. I also suspect Sand was probably quite a lot brighter than McKenna. McKenna was verbose, but acid chemists.... they tend to be exceptionally bright.

In this forum, on such a thread, I am genuinely humbled and reminded of the DEEP mystery that we abide and are sustained by! Each, deep experience that I'm allowed(even Salvia), reboots my entire reference frame. Tatt, wow..."stay humble always when talking about these things, you know very little, but now you know, so don't forget it".

The only real "religion" I've ever "had" was experiential, catalyzed by entheogens of choice. Sand, reminded Dr Ott, that DMT, and all psychedelics, could be referenced as "entheogens", only if they were used as such.

Surely, Sand and T.McKenna(amongst many) gifted us with THEIR particular genius! And aren't we the richer for it?

Peace

Well, Sand did write those articles in order to harshly condemn Rick Strassman’s interpretation of the DMT experience as harmful and delusional because of how shallow it was and how far off the mark he deemed it to be... so, while I did note the points on which I respect Terence, no, I would have to disagree there. Like Sand with Strassman, I actually find it quite unfortunate that Terence’s lectures shape so many of our cultural ideas about DMT - and psilocybin too, really. He talked a lot about an archaic revival, but he was very far removed from ever discussing anything even remotely resembling traditional models around psychedelic use. His ideas were basically a bunch of bad sci-fi.

I tried 5-MeO-DMT.

Based on how... sober, DMT and 5-MeO-DMT are (by which I mean zero “mindfuck”)... I gotta conclude, the endogenous serotonergic psychedelics are keys, and the other psychedelics are more like lockpicks.

İnteresting point. For me liberty caps don't give any mindfuck (a well known difference of semilanceata vs cubensis) however the experience is more dreamlike than the endogenous/plant tryptamines.

Shulgin actually disliked this aspect of endogenous psychedelics. For him it just made them a waste of time. He wanted his thoughts to be pushed in new ways. But from my perspective as a practicing Buddhist who generally follows the precept not to become intoxicated (with serotonergic psychedelics being a very notable exception), this absence of cognitive “distortion” is a very big plus. At this point I don’t think I’m interested in exogenous psychedelics anymore, unless I can’t access endogenous ones or if there’s a specific need for a special quality (i.e. entactogenic or anti-addiction properties, etc.).

Mescaline

With the exception of Harman, the beta carbolines are not endogenous, however they are the major players behind the "sobriety"/clarity of ayahuasca. BTW, imo thinking in new ways is independent from "mindfuck" vs clarity, and clarity is better for all kinds of thinking.

Strongly disagree. The sober nature of the experience is fully present during the vaporized DMT breakthrough. And harmalas plus shrooms definitely does not have the “sobriety” that ayahuasca or oral 5-MeO-DMT+harmalas share in an identical manner. I’ve done all of them.

If anything the more harmalas I consume on mushrooms the more warped it gets. I enjoy it, but it is certainly not making the experience any more “sober”. That’s an endogenous tryptamine thing, not a harmala thing. Like I said, Shulgin outright disliked this aspect of the endogenous tryptamines, and he was speaking of his experience with vaporizing and injecting them. For some reason neither he nor Ann could consume ayahuasca without becoming massively overwhelmed even at the microdose level. Joe Rogan and Terence McKenna also note the sober nature of the DMT breakthrough. That is why it is so astounding; it is more akin to visiting a place than consuming a drug because of how “unaltered” cognition remains in the midst of the most powerful psychedelic states in existence.

I do think Harmalas contribute to the how soberish the experience feels, to a degree that is. Either when low to moderate dosing the Harmalas, or when taking Harmalas regularly so that the reverse tolerance builds up and the side-effects go away, that's when the Harmala clarity is more noticeable. Harmalas in low to moderate dosages without the reverse tolerance does seem to make the mushroom and 4-ACO experience more clearheaded and doesn't seem to interfere with cognition, and Harmalas in heavy dosages with the reverse tolerance built up without the side-effects present also has the same clarity. Moclobemide with mushrooms or 4-ACO also has this because Moclobemide is purely an MAO-A inhibitor and doesn't share the other effects that Harmalas have.

I do agree though, while Harmalas/MAO-A inhibition can contribute to the clarity/clearheadedness and sober nature of the experience/lack of cognitive disruption, DMT at least is very sobering and non-distorting, whereas i've had mushrooms and 4-ACO on their own and they definitely seem to have an altering aspect that i don't get from DMT.

With ayahuasca, specifically, I get a clarifying effect when I smoke syrian rue.

With mushrooms though, I get a warping effect. I smoked many, many bowls of syrian rue with a friend once and both of us began to notice some major sound distortion, and general warping of everything.

I don't know about the combination of rue and the mushrooms that you have, but the spirit of rue is like the archetype of clarity for me. Foremost by itself, then with tryptamines. I only have experience with liberty caps when it comes to mushrooms and rue, and I wexperience no warping of consciousness, though it is more dreamlike than with DMT. I probably use much less mushrooms than others average doses though.

BTW, of course soberness while inebriated is an oxymoron. All these altered states are distinct from true sobriety no matter how clear.

Thanks for all the historical and cultural accounts, OneIsEros.

Sure. I just mean to say that the cognitive distortion which occurs with DMT and 5-MeO-DMT whether either one of them is taken orally with harmalas or vaporized is vastly less pronounced than on any other psychedelic, even while the states are vastly more intense than those produced by other psychedelics.

Have y'all tried 4-ACO-DMT? I'm not too experienced with mushrooms in themselves, but combined them with Rue a good few times, and also 4-ACO with Rue a handful of times. Both 4-ACO with Rue, and mushrooms with Rue, produce nearly identical experiences/effects for me, but the mushrooms have a little something extra, i guess you can call it the mushroom spirit or some other compounds or even the fungal material itself that influences the characteristics/personality of the experience. However, 4-ACO with Rue provides a cleaner/clearer Psilohuasca experience, nearly identical to that of mushrooms with Rue but definitely clearer, and in fact seems more mushroomy than mushrooms with Rue, for some reason. I always also get lots of visuals of mushrooms when mixing 4-ACO with Rue, it's basically pure Psilocin at that point and i can definitely feel the Psilocin, just like i can when mixing mushrooms with Rue.

Psilohuasca using 35mgs of 4-ACO and 2.5 grams of Rue with 4 grams of Lemon Balm was very clear and clean and more relaxed compared to oral DMT but for the most part took me to the same space as i go to with oral DMT and Rue, and it was by far the best Psilohuasca experience i've had to date, full on ecstatic Psychedelia, talking in tongues, smooth, clean/clear, powerful, very similar to oral DMT just more relaxed and less edgy compared to DMT with it's Adrenergic properties.

I don't have any experience with synthetics. However, about edgyness, I can say each plant has different qualities; Chacruna is pretty edgy, though I would imagine less edgy than pure synthetic DMT, acacia confusa is pretty fluffy. My recent discovery Phragmites is very smooth and rounded. Phalaris brachystachys is not edgy either. All have DMT along with other stuff. NMT in Chacruna and A. confusa, in a close to 1:1 ratio in confusa. Phragmites I am guessing to be quite a cocktail, including 5 MeO and beta carbolines. And all are very clear and without cognitive distortion for me.

With this data it appears that the endogenous tryptamines and certain exogenous beta carbolines occupy a higher status from the perspective of clarity.

However, in terms of experiencing a deep spiritual and heart-centered connection to the Earth, I must say liberty caps top DMT plants for me.

For different purposes, different Entheogens take the cake - they all have a unique gift.

Only in the context of what is it that I need most and what the world needs most at this time, will the most important Entheogens question make sense.

Hierarchy of needs.

This thread is becoming one of the most interesting discussions on the nexus...

If I could only keep one, I think it would be one of the DMT containing acacias..but I also find psilocybin mushrooms, LSD and cactus to be allies all too worthy of veneration .. and If you would consider music an entheogen then that would certainly be the most used tool in my kit! .. I find the process of making music very entheogenic in itself .. and then listening to the finished product on any of the above mentioned psycheelics ... what a mirror to our very essence!