I dunno about you, but with time and experience I’ve concluded that some psychedelics are more important than others, although it depends on the perspective you take (in medical terms, entheogenic, recreational?). But here I’m speaking in entheogenic terms.

Personally, I have found that ayahuasca is like a better version of psilocybin, and mescaline is like a better version of LSD, in entheogenic terms (and ayahuasca seems to have more entheogenic value than mescaline).

I’ve never tried 5-MeO-DMT, 5-HO-DMT, or ibogaine, but it sounds like 5-MeO-DMT may be a contender against DMT for “most entheogenically potent” psychedelic.

It doesn’t sound as though 5-HO-DMT offers much that DMT can’t match in a better form.

Ibogaine so many of the reports are heroin users getting off their addiction, it’s kind of hard to get a sense of what its value is in itself entheogenically from reading reports.... getting off heroin is always gonna be a harrowing to the core of your spirit experience, lol.

What are your thoughts?

You might as well ask "What's your favourite colour?"

"Important" is a very arbitrary and subjective term.

I'm far from a voice of experience and knowledge as I'm still searching and experimenting, but think you cant place a value on something over another.

Imo each have different "purposes", different dosages leads to different means of connection to either the earth, spirituality, or self reflection. Seeing into your sub conscious, speaking into it, or even letting it take the wheel.

It's more so finding or pin pointing what each substance can be used for. Everything has a time and place for healing or leading you down a path. At least that's what I gather the true shamanist view points seem to be and something I agree with completely.

Mm, I’d disagree with these sentiments. While individual experience will vary, in general I’m very comfortable asserting higher entheogenic value to ayahuasca over psilocybin.

Nick Sand certainly thought there was a hierarchy that could be discerned. He personally thought DMT, mescaline, and ibogaine were the most “pure”, with DMT being the most “pure” of these. I haven’t done ibogaine, but that’s roughly in accord with my experience.

At this point I only consume psilocybin or LSD over ayahuasca or mescaline in situations where nausea is not permissible (i.e. in a public yoga studio). I would concede that an opposition like “psilocybin vs. LSD” would be difficult to assign hierarchical value to, and would probably ultimately just be a matter of individual preference. But ayahuasca vs. psilocybin? It seems like there’s a pretty clear hierarchy there that’s not simply a matter of my personal preference.

See imo just in your own statement its clear your doing psilocybin in the wrong settings. Public yoga studio?

Man shrooms grant such an intense connection to nature and the earth that being surrounded by society and humans is the last thing I want to do.

Hell, I can't even stand being inside while on them. As soon as I take them I realize I spend wayyyy too much time in the prison of walls I have settled in and have to go out and appreacite walking around on my property. Seeing plants and wildlife I completely would ignore on the regular.

Shrooms awaken a sense of adventure and settlement in the grand scheme of things. Explore everything with the eyes of a child not being perceptually blinded by our constant surroundings that we eliminate as background noise as we get older. Etc.

So yes, doing it in a human society where the only importance is us as humans, obviously you will think DMTs ability to teleport you elsewhere has "more value".

Side note: F Nick Sand or any single person for that matter. Dont take someone's word as gospel. These things have been around and practiced religiously for thousands of years prior to any of these egotistical western minded hippies.

No LSD trip for me has ever been the same. No Mushroom trip have ever been the same. Each time you trip it's a new experience that might have similar vibes. It's made even more difficult when people start comparing the same compound at different dosages. If you want to go and give a ranking to each psychedelic be my guest. But the rankings are going to be personal in nature and will not line up with everyone's view.

Another thing is that these are tools for inner exploration. One tool might be different than another despite achieving the same ends.You might enjoy using a screw gun to get the screw in fast while another might enjoy the slower paced screwdriver. Perhaps there are situations where one psychedelic would be more wise to take than another but I dont think you have to start ranking them like some kind of power level.

Wrong settings... ? Friend, I use psilocybin and LSD in my yoga practice because I find psychedelics in general enhance the yoga experience, and yoga enhances the psychedelic experience. The first time I did yoga on acid, when I walked out the world looked almost like a pixar cartoon - the change in trip quality was astounding. So clean, so pure, so beautiful, so ordered.... that trip converted me ever after.

The same goes for meditation while on psychedelics.There is a mutual deepening of the trip and the practice. And the only reason I do yoga on psychedelics in public is because I do hot yoga, where they heat the room. I have been tripping for 13 years, and after 13 years of tripping, I found that the indigenous cultures are correct; practice deepens tripping. I do not drum or sing or dance or chant as indigenous cultures do, so, I tried my yoga and meditation practices with these things. To my delight, it deepened tripping by a lot. Visuals turned into visions. Just increasing the dose or even the setting does not effect these changes. Far too often we treat set passively - “are you in a good mood?”. This is not how indigenous cultures treat set. For them, set is your skillset, not your mood.

I have used these things in many settings over a 13 year period. I would love to bring ayahuasca into the studio too, I just can’t risk vomiting in a yoga studio, lol, so, my use of it is restricted to meditation practice. All that is really important as far as setting goes when I meditate on ayahuasca is just that the environment be of moderate temperature and quiet, because I keep my eyes closed while I do it. The things I have seen have been comparable to DMT breakthroughs, but moving much more slowly. I have meditated on psilocybin as well, I just find that the visions and healings are not as profound.

Nick Sand also brought his meditation practice and yoga practice to psychedelic use, for the same reasons I did: it’s what he knew. I didn’t do it because Sand said to, I did it because I already did it, and I wanted to deepen my relationship to psychedelics, instead of just taking them passively. I’m not taking his word as gospel either; I’m saying this is my experience, and it accords with someone who had a deeply dedicated relationship with psychedelics. Terence McKenna, btw, who loved mushrooms, once said that ayahuasca shamans when he spoke to them about mushrooms would say tongue in cheek that they used mushrooms when there was no ayahuasca - but they always had ayahuasca. Ayahuasca shamans are more than happy as a general rule to practice with cactus, though.

And btw, friend, Maria Sabina took mushrooms at night in her home. She would chant and sing for the duration of her experience. She didn’t take nature walks. Some groups do that; I believe there are some tribes in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, who would make pilgrimages in the desert consuming peyote. But, many shamans stay inside, chanting, singing, drumming, on all of these substances - mushrooms, ayahuasca, cactus - but, I don’t know how to do that. But my yoga and meditation practices have definitely deepened the experience far beyond anything I experienced in nature walks. Those experiences were beautiful, but they didn’t have the results that a dedicated intentional practice did, and the majority of indigenous practicioners bring dedicated intentional practices of some kind or other to these experiences.

Finally, you have to be pretty experienced to pull this off successfully. I tried it when I was initially getting into meditation - I couldn’t focus. And I sure as heck would never have been in any public setting around sober people while tripping early on. No way. But that was a long time ago. Now, I meditate for two hours a day, and I do yoga very regularly, and I am very experienced with psychedelics and am not uncomfortable in public settings on them. That’s not a flex, I’m just cautioning that it takes experience and discipline to do this properly - and, I am recommending it. Not my practices specifically - but some sort of practice, because intentional practice definitely deepens things, and I have never heard of a shaman who just took something and hoped for the best. Those tribes in San Luis Potosi do the pilgrimage as a tribe, including everyone. That’s a little different from a shaman’s private practice. Shamans are shamans because they have a skillset. I am not a shaman nor do I claim to be, but I would say it is good to take a cue from shamans and explore disciplined practice with psychedelics, if you feel drawn to exploring a committed and intentional relationship with using them. There are many possibilities, beyond just practices like drumming/chanting/singing. I’ve experimented a little with martial arts during trips, and that was certainly effective. A Kung Fu practicioner whom I gave ayahuasca to was very grateful when I suggested he practice his forms while tripping. He said it elevated him to a new level of depth in his practice.

Good reply OneIsEros, i agree.

Think took it the wrong way Eros. Im not saying you're wrong to do so in your practice. I said IMO doing it indoors and around the confines of human means is extremely limiting.

Yes I am fully aware and in agreement with meditative practices. As like you touched on, thats why indigenous cultures sing or dance. Personally thats what I have to do when take something like Salvia, I do what I must to enter a trance like space so when my eyes are closed experience a complete seperation of mind and body. I rock my body back and forth with some subtle headbangong, you do yoga. Same thing just different means.

What I was getting at which wasn't clear is you can do those things completely surrounded by nature. Not saying to simply go on nature walks. Some of my best times on shrooms was just laid out in a field absorbing the world around me as I am self reflecting on myself. When you mention Shamans stay inside, thats a drastic technicality. They live out in the middle of nowhere usually. In environment with no separation to the jungle or whatever. Just a hut or shelter to protect from the elements, but still VERY exposed to nature and her sounds.

Also about McKennas comment on ayahuasca. It all depends where you go. A lot of tribes have different opinions. Southern shamans in Peru dont practice Ayahuasca at all and simply do large dosages as Caapi as feel thats the true teacher and Aya just clouds the message. Also the whole thing about approaching a shaman is for healing purposes. A majority of the time I think anyone can agree Aya does a better job than mushrooms do. Hence where I thinj that comment to McKenna comes from. Not that they downplayed Mushrooms. The practices and ideologies are so bastardized these days with a holes on the pursuit of money thats you have to take a lot of what you read about them with a grain of salt. Even then, "shamans" in areas like Mexico have been killed of their true beliefs thanks to the Catholic churchs input on the region. All they are doing is using psychedelics to pray and are just glorified trip sitters that giving a drug to those asking to take a drug, not that they know the reason of someone's ailments and seeks the proper plant to heal them like what proper and extremely rare Shamans do in the jungles of South America.

I guarantee you, you are vastly more experienced with psychedelics than me, but my reluctance and pure constant studying of these religious practices from someone who was completely nihilist and still fighting that urge has opened me up to a realm of thoight as to why to take psychedelics that felt was extremely limited on practitioners in the western world. I rather take the world and approach by someone who lives the life, not just writes a book about them.

Not trying to downplay your approach at all or argue. It's more so just attempting you to consider a new light or means of taking something to then give it a ranking system. But yes, I've also done holotropic breathing with a rigged up mind machine to get me into Delta, while meditating. Incredible body high and clarity completely naturally, felt like i was just floating, separated entirely, i can see my breathing and time and audio was slowed down, I could just stop breathing on command and my thoughts had utter control of my being. Incredoble experience. Something I havnt had the ability to recreate always from lack of practice. So point being I get what your getting at. I'm not someone taking a dump on your prsctice at all. Something else I'm getting into and idk if you have done is the Wim Hoff Method?

Nope, never tried that. Looks interesting though.

I’ve got nothing against tripping in nature, and I’d be very happy to do yoga outside, but with my eyes closed in meditation, the only thing I find that really matters is that it is quiet and the temperature moderate. I suppose what I am getting at is that the importance of environmental setting and mood is often overstated in our culture because of how passive our models of use are - active skillful use is virtually unknown. With the development of skill, mood and environment are less important. It’s still nice to be in a good mood and in a beautiful place, but not as important as it is often made out to be. It definitely has nothing to do with how I’m choosing to rank these substances.

I appreciate this topic. For me, liberty caps are priceless for their heart opening, and so is Syrian rue (usually with DMT admixture) for it's deep divine reorientation. Nothing can be compared and put into a hierarchy, the mouse is God as is the Eagle. However everything has a place and for me the primary master medicine is Syrian rue.




That is a striking point, one that I can understand.

Oh absolutely check him out.
https://youtu.be/VaMjhwFE1Zw

But agreed with you 100% there. Feel the biggest importance is to have a goal in mind and seek it out. Recreational its fun for sure, but such an understatement to what they can do.

Going back to mushrooms, thats something the indegenous people do for a set purpose. Hunting. Even McKenna speak on that.

I've currently just begun growing them as I posted recently a thread, but thats one of the for sure things I plan on using them for.

Loved that.

For me it's ayahuasca, nothing compares. The earth shaker To move a mountain you need dynamite, not a shovel, and that's where ayahuasca comes in.

I also value cacti, which can offer a different, more loving perspective.

Have only done Iboga a handful of times, mostly small doses and one flood, so I don't know it that well, but I believe it holds great power, especially when one wants to change one's habits.

Mescaline over LSD for me mostly, as far as being entheogenic goes. There's a significantly greater empathic quality to it that stays throughout the experience for me. Seems much more emotionally charged in every moment, and there's an insanely beautiful depth to it once it unfolds.

LSD can be beautiful and potentially entheogenic for me, but set and setting tends to play massively in that. At the higher doages it can get pretty hairy early on during the comeup, it can get very strange, very bizarre, though depending on how this is worked through, it can lead into some incredibly moving experiences, plenty of depth there and things to beg the question. Have had a couple high-dose-whitelight-into-full-dissolution type experiences in the past with LSD. 100% had brought me into a realm that'd left much to chew on for some years down the road, turned everything I knew, including my perceiveable reality inside out.

Aya brews with the few different dmt admixtures - they were incredibly challenging experiences for me. Incomprehensible power and depth. All the dealings with life, spirit, death, what I think myself to be, so on n' so forth. I put all those up on a shelf for years at some points during my journeying. Shook me to the core. Saw and learned plenty from some of those experiences. Entheogenic for me? You bet. My pharmahuasca experiences also fall in line with these experiences.

DMT? Very sensitive to DMT. Much in the same vein as many of my aya/admix experiences, though DMT on breakthrough for me personally is qualitatively a much different experience into where it takes me, versus the former, especially as the years have went along. Some of, if not the most life changing experiences I've had hands down came from DMT. They'd affected me more than anything else for the most part. It was only a few experiences out've the last 11 years that'd done it, though I won't ever forget them. I still think about them often, even after all this time. Been a few years since I've taken DMT. Nothing else has done that for me personally. DMT taught me above all else that the jokes on me and to stay humble always when talking about these things. "You know very little, but now you know, ..so don't forget it."





EDIT: Bit my tongue even writing any of this tbh. At this point it's all entheogenic for me. Heck, even smoking cannabis on certain occasions can be this way to me. Much of what I wrote above falls short of any real description. Was about to delete it all, but figured I'd just write this little bit at the bottom. Rough gloss at best in everything I said above.

I think I should mention that the most powerful entheogen experiences I’ve ever had were on LSD. When it comes to those select individual experiences, none of my ayahuasca experiences or experiences on any other psychedelics have yet matched that handful of select LSD experiences I’ve had (out of countless LSD experiences).

But I think that’s because of my individual nature, I reallllly work well with LSD, it is a very powerfully mystical drug for me, more than it is for most people I encounter. In general though, ayahuasca is a more reliably entheogenic vehicle, even though ayahuasca has not yet matched the power of those individual acid trips (and I have at this point probably done more ayahuasca than acid).

I’m just noting this so people don’t get the idea that I’m knocking or discreditng things like LSD. It’s just that in those select cases, it seemed to be more because of my idiosyncratic nature that it became so mystically charged. And, almost every time I take ayahuasca, now that I meditate on it, it becomes “entheogenic” rather than just psychedelic. It seems more reliably entheogenic even though those select few LSD trips have gone deeper than ayahuasca has yet brought me.

It’s not black and white. But I do still feel comfortable saying that, as a general rule, the human brain does seem more suited to substances like DMT, and from reports I’ve read I suspect, 5-MeO-DMT as well, for entheogenic experience.

Nick Sand was no, "egotistical western minded hippie". A bit of a wild man, as his bio reveals, but in the end, his commitment to sharing the "sacraments" was unwavering. Rather the sage in his later years.

Peace

Indeed. His two articles “Moving Into the Sacred World of DMT” and its sequel “Just a Wee Bit More About DMT” are the only speculative works about the underlying nature of the DMT breakthrough that I take seriously. It is possible that no one in history spent as much time on the other side as Sand, and we are very lucky that it was somebody with his integrity and intelligence who did so to report back to us with those two short but precious articles.

He also, in those two articles, assumed a hierarchy in the entheogenic potency of the different psychedelics, describing DMT as the "touchstone" molecule among all the others. It was in an interview at Burning Man that he said he believed mescaline and ibogaine followed after DMT in terms of the degree of their "purity".

I have never tried ibogaine or 5-MeO-DMT, but based on personal experience and research, it seems to me that it looks like DMT>5-MeO-DMT> mescaline/ibogaine (without certainty about which of the last two would take precedence over the other). Some would say 5-MeO-DMT>DMT. But I would not find it controversial to assert the entheogenic priority of the endogenous over the exogenous psychedelics.

On reflection I guess I'd say that how an internal hierarchy of the exogenous psychedelics and an internal hierarchy of the endogenous psychedelics would be formed in general would probably come down to a matter of personal taste, but the (general!) entheogenic priority of endogenous psychedelics over exogenous psychedelics is something I feel comfortable asserting. It's the way our brains are built.

There are exceptions: Sasha Shulgin could not and Ann Shulgin cannot, take ayahuasca. It hit/hits them like a train even at microdose levels and they simply can't/couldn't consume it without being massively overwhelmed (which definitely makes me wary of trying out the RC's they made because it is such a strange coincidence that both of them happen/happened to have that reaction - could it have been some chemical or chemicals over the years messed up their neurochemistry? It is a strange coincidence!).

Neat dialogue! Personally, I have always been so "overwhelmed" by adequate doses of psychedelics that retrospectively assigning a hierarchical score to differential experiences would not be possible. For me, at least, I'm "tripping" hard, or not. Psychedelics have always been catalysts into a mind state that other "drugs" have not facilitated.

Ayahuasca, and other orally active tryptaminic teas, catalyzed by caapi, rue or moclobemide, generally seem to be WAY more challenging physically, versus RCs, mushrooms or extracted tryptamines/phenethylamines. I can relate to extreme nausea and "maracion" induced by higher doses of caapi and rue.

Well understood, is that chronic exposure to "beta carbolines", harmalas from rue or caapi, will reduce the intense body load.

Peace

Yeah, in another interview I saw with Sand he stated that he personally could never deal with the nausea ayahuasca induced in him, so he took DMT exclusively by injecting or vaporizing it. Interesting, because ayahuasca produces almost no nausea in me at all - while mescaline, which Sand loved, is overwhelmingly nausea inducing for me even in its pure form. Someone told me that harmalas and mescaline induce nausea through different mechanisms.

With Ann and Sasha though it wasn’t a nausea thing - they would just be on the floor tripping out of their minds, even with microdoses of ayahuasca, to the point that they couldn’t touch it, even though they consumed every other psychedelic in existence. Very, very strange coincidence that they would both have that reaction. It really does make me suspect they may have done something bad to themselves chemically in the course of ingesting every known psychedelic substance in their life, just because it’s so strange that they would both have such an odd and identical reaction.