DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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endlessness wrote:I'd still like to know more details from McIlhenny and Callaway's findings to understand how they arrived at their conclusion, what kind of controls they did in their research.
Hypothetically THH could be converting back to harmine over time, so fresh caapi might be essential for high THH brews That's not what I was getting at, I don't think it's that fresh caapi is necessary. The graph I just posted shows water extracts of multiple dry caapi samples with very high THH content. I think it's that a methanol extraction vs a cold water extraction changes the alkaloid content. What do you make of the differences between your own analyses? Your analysis thread used dry caapi but more importantly methanol. But how about your THH thread where you used a cold water extraction? https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=35984 Just eyeballing it but that THH looks wayy higher than the 0-3% alk content by ratio to other alkaloids you were getting from your methanol extracts in the caapi analysis thread. Did you use the same plant samples in these 2 threads? Looks similar to Callaway 2005 results where he used methanol on dry plants too and got 6:1 harmine:THH but the other study I posted found avg 1:1 with water extracts. "the major components and distributions were always harmine, which was greater than THH" - Callaway 2005 from methanol extract. But water extract often showed higher or equal THH.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 14191 Joined: 19-Feb-2008 Last visit: 15-Nov-2024 Location: Jungle
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I hadnt seen that study you mentioned in the previous post, they tested "commercial samples", which I suppose had a significant time between harvesting and testing, so my "fresh vs dry" hypothesis doesn't seem to stand. I'd be curious to see the results of any further tests you do to try to unravel this question further 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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endlessness wrote:I hadnt seen that study you mentioned in the previous post, they tested "commercial samples", which I suppose had a significant time between harvesting and testing, so my "fresh vs dry" hypothesis doesn't seem to stand. I'd be curious to see the results of any further tests you do to try to unravel this question further Pretty hard to get caapi right now with the covid lockdowns so I don't think I'll be able to try it anytime soon. But an overnight soak of the same plant, one jar with methanol one with cold water, and then TLC'd should prove the enzyme theory. Cold water soak should have visibly vastly higher THH levels. Will get around to it eventually probably if no one else does.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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Also just tried long boiling rue 4-5hrs with pretty much pure vinegar in a cast iron pot, there was no visible change w/ TLC in THH or any alkaloid levels, though the water reaked of iron so much I had to throw the batch out. I wonder if there was not enough iron released or if iron is not a good enough reducer.
Might try magnesium as it's quite non toxic with doses up to 1g being reported relatively safe. I'm very hesitant to use zinc which daily intake is around the 10mg range. Adding a pinch of magnesium into your rue brew while boiling to totally change it sounds appealing.
Edit: And tried another theory I have seen talked about here, just electrolysis of harmala electrolyte water which didn't work on a small amount over 7 hours or so with a 12V running through it. Might have done it wrong I don't know much about electrolysis. Harmala salts were dissolved in vinegar, water, with originally 250mg magnesium oxide which I thought could maybe act as a redox combined with electrolysis, but realized I think it would just work as an electrolyte. Seemed to stop reacting at a point so I added salt (here's where I added a little alcohol incase it manske'd out of water) Left to bubble for 6-7 hours and observed bubbles at the cathode and anode. Glass of liquid smelled heavily like chlorine in the morning. No visible change w/ TLC. Maybe the water has to be basic I don't know.
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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There's a whole lot more to electrochemistry than simply running 12V through your solution - choice of electrode material (along with attendant overvoltage considerations), current density, use of flow systems, isolation of the anode using a membrane... the list goes on. If you're interested, I'll see what I can dig out from my file system. βThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." β Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 14191 Joined: 19-Feb-2008 Last visit: 15-Nov-2024 Location: Jungle
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But to try all these things like electrolysis, using other metals to do the reduction, is not really related to your quest to learn about the supposed natural reduction of harmalas during boiling, right? If you simply want some harmaline->thh reduction and aren't experimenting anymore specifically to learn how it is happening naturally, then just use pure zinc, it def works ( 1, 2)
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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downwardsfromzero wrote:There's a whole lot more to electrochemistry than simply running 12V through your solution - choice of electrode material (along with attendant overvoltage considerations), current density, use of flow systems, isolation of the anode using a membrane... the list goes on.
If you're interested, I'll see what I can dig out from my file system. Absolutely, if you can give me any experiments to try I will do them and post a TLC. Just going off my basic understanding, I don't see how electrolysis would be much different than zinc as a reducer here. Zinc donates electrons and forms H+ ions in gas, which (I think?) form with harmaline to create THH. Electrolysis reduces salt water (using graphite for cath/anode) at cathode to form H+ ions and hydroxide. Why wouldn't it cause the same? endlessness wrote:But to try all these things like electrolysis, using other metals to do the reduction, is not really related to your quest to learn about the supposed natural reduction of harmalas during boiling, right? If you simply want some harmaline->thh reduction and aren't experimenting anymore specifically to learn how it is happening naturally, then just use pure zinc, it def works ( 1, 2) My quest isn't to learn about the reduction of harmalas via boiling, it is to make rue an easier and more viable alternative to caapi. I thought different boiling methods might be one end to that but it seems that isn't the case. I think the THH conversion in caapi is due to enzymes which rue doesn't have. (I wonder though, if that's the case could you stretch caapi by throwing in some extra rue alkaloids into a brew and letting it convert them still leaving a THH heavy brew?) I do want to experiment. I'd rather not use zinc. I've gone through all the trouble to get TLC materials anyway, might as well try a few things. It would be nice if I could find easier methods for myself and others to improve rue. If I try magnesium and it works for example I could maybe just throw a couple grams of magnesium chips in while extracting, filter, and crude manske for a THH rue brew. I would feel comfortable doing that without thinking I might overdose on magnesium considering the much higher safe dosage range. Dunno how viable electrolysis could be but just leaving it overnight without having to filter/worry about contams and getting a THH brew would be easier than zinc. I'd rather just use caapi if I can't find an easier way to do it I think. Which is a shame due to price and dependence on one plant which is much harder to grow and could easily be taken away legally in the future. I do like rue but not sure how much I like the harder on your body feel of harmaline. I'm surprised more people haven't experimented with what I have tried. I think many don't ascribe much importance to MAOIs but as soon as I did a high dose of them mixed with DMT I felt I never wanted to do a tryptamine without them again. They aren't just a potentiator they are powerful compounds alone, honestly I am wondering if they are more powerful than all tryptamines in terms of healing power even when taken without any DMT plant. Have been dosing small to medium amounts for the past month and feel like a totally different person. Never experienced any glow comparable to this from any other drug. Maybe a few days or have an experience that blew my mind for a while but this stuff just feels like happy juice. Anyway, I feel what I am doing is quite useful. Haven't found anything new to successfully generate THH but still feel this thread is a win because I dispelled a bunch of potential myths and now we can all know what doesn't work but previously thought might work. Also narrowed down what is happening with caapi.
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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Here's a slight tangent. Considering TLC is used in this thread as the way of identifying relative amounts of the harmala alkaloids, I'd like to know if anyone here has tried using some form of column or flash chromatography for for prep scale separation of harmala alkaloids. Now, electrochemistry... let me see. I had a little poke around the forum and found a couple of things. Then I went out to do some things in the garden. Now it's late and I haven't found the electrochemistry text. This post has a link to an electrochemistry paper of particular relevance. In summary, one should avoid contact between the harmala alkaloid electrolyte and the anode in order to prevent losses through oxidation. Here's an old post raising the idea of electrolysis of harmala alkaloids, incidentally. And here are some edited excerpts from someone else's electrochemistry notes:
Quote:Preparation of the cell
An unglazed clay flowerpot with an upper diameter of 8 cm and height of 7 cm was scrubbed inside and outside with medium coarse sandpaper. It was washed well with water and allowed to stand a night in a dilute sulphuric acid solution.
From a clean HDPE bottle, having about the same diameter as the flowerpot, the bottom was cut off at about 7.5 cm height and at the top a small hole was cut. This will serve as container for the anolyte, and inside the flowerpot comes the catholyte.
[...]
Volume used inside the flowerpot is maximum 100 ml, to allow for some breathing room. The cell is usable for reducing small amounts of [substrate], up to 10 grams. Connections are made directly from the copper wire to the electrodes. The copper wire is rigid and can carry high current without problems (mine is 2.5 mm diameter and can carry a maximum of 20 A). Care must be taken that the copper connection to the anode is outside the hole, as contact with the anolyte will dissolve the copper fast.
The cathode and anode are both rectangular sheets of lead of about 20 cm2 surface area (10 cm x 2 cm). They are first scrubbed and defatted with acetone, then cleaned electrolytically by putting them in the above divided cell, both compartments filled with dilute sulphuric acid, and putting a charge (12 V) through them forwards and backwards, about half an hour each time. The one covered with a brown layer of PbO2 will be used as the cathode.
[...]
[...]Cooling of the substrate seems to be the main problem, as considerable heat is evolved during the reduction. Good stirring of the catholyte is essential.
I. Rough electrodes
When one takes a freshly cast pure lead electrode and rubs the surface with cotton wool and wet sandpaper, a rough matt surface is obtained. We will refer to such treated electrodes as "rough" in the text that follows.
When such a rough electrode is polarised in a divided cell then, at least at higher current densities, in contrast to cadmium an immediate rise to a high value of cathode potential is obtained. This high cathode potential is attained at medium current densities around 10-20 minutes in most cases. With higher current densities (150-300 mA/cm2) this potential begins to decrease rapidly and in all cases of continuous polarisation the cathode potential will first more rapidly, then slower and more evenly decrease, so that no lower limit could be attained.
Cathode potentials of a rough cylindrical lead electrode were measured in a 2N acidic solution with a current density of 300 mA/cm2 (RT):
1.356V - 1 min.
1.304V - 5 min.
1.290V - 10 min.
1.272V - 20 min.
1.251V - 30 min.
1.202V - 60 min.
At lower temperatures (around 10°C) higher peak potentials are obtained, around 2.000V using a current density of 150mA/cm2.
There are clearly slight fluctuations in potential values between various seemingly identical shaped "rough" electrodes. In the author's opinion this can be ascribed to differences in density and its ability of the surface to disintegrate.
II. Pre-treated lead cathodes
When the lead cathode was pre-treated with a layer of PbO2 initially no hydrogen evolution is observed and the measured potential was very low. When 1/4 to 1/2 minute has passed hydrogen evolution starts and the potential rises sharply and one minute later a constant value is attained. This value was slightly lower than what was observed using the rough electrode.
E.g. for similarly shaped electrodes in a vertical apparatus using a current density of 125 mA/cm2, when one minute passed a value of 1.845V was obtained for the pre-treated electrode, while for the rough electrode this was 1.902V .
Also with the pre-treated electrode the potential drops more rapidly over time. When 10 minutes passed the potential dropped 0.047V for the pre-treated electrode vs. 0.015V for the rough one. One hour later, though, the potential of the pre-treated electrode only dropped 0.034V so we can conclude that in this case there also seems to be a stabilisation occurring.
III. Influence of acid concentration
Generally, like is observed with a mercury cathode, it is commonly agreed that the cathode potential rises ceteris paribus with the lowering of the acid concentration. In practice this difference is negligible for lead cathodes.
IV. Potential depression
When using a divided cell (Pt anode, 125mA/cm2, 2N H2SO4, 12°C) and a rough lead cathode one observes the potential lower only slightly over 180 minutes (peaks first at 2.010V and lowers gradually to around 1.980V). The last 150 minutes the drop is only 0.005V .
When the cathode is then removed, rubbed with cotton wool and wet sandpaper, and replaced the observed peak is somewhat lower (around 1.950V) and the potential gradually declines to 1.850V at the 160th minute. Around the 180th minute there is a sudden drop observed to 1.350V . A similar depression is observed when cadmium is used as the cathode, but there the drop occurs much sooner than in the case of lead.
Lead also seems to have the characteristic ability -again contrary to cadmium- to relieve itself from this depression. In some cases the potential rises again with 0.200V half an hour after the depression point.
Pre-treated electrodes seem to be somewhat more labile in this aspect, as the occurrence of a depression seems also to be influenced by other factors, such as the contamination with anolyte in case of long polarisation times.
As a rule will pre-treated electrodes, when the -by a sudden sharp rise in potential- characteristic reduction of PbO2 has ended, first of all even show depressed values, or at least values that are situated between depression and peak potential. What happens hereafter is in many cases very variable.
When anolyte can contaminate the catholyte the following situations can be observed:
1. The cathode will constantly attain a depression value (generally around 1.300-1.350V using above conditions, observed for 50 minutes)
This phenomenon occurs most frequently with those electrodes which during pre-treatment have been strongly oxidised for a long amount of time (20 mA/cm2 10-40 minutes).
2. The cathode reaches a low value, gradually recovers and reaches a high value, wherafter the potential decreases again to its depression value (observed over 120 minutes).
This phenomenon occurs most frequently when the electrode has been electrolytically oxidised for 40 minutes (or more).
3. The cathode reaches a low to medium value, then within minutes rises sharply to its peak value and more or less attains it (generally around 1.900V using above conditions, observed for 50 minutes). It is similar to what is observed with rough electrodes.
This phenomenon occurs most frequently when the electrode has been electrolytically oxidised for a very short time (3-15 minutes).
V. Potential elevation
When one re-polarises an depressed cathode - taking care that anolyte cannot contaminate - one can reach again a high potential value. Such method in practice requires more than just dilute H2SO4. Good results have been obtained using a caffeinated H2SO4 solution. In such a case the climbing to a peak potential goes together with the start of the reduction of caffeine.
Eg. A pre-treated cathode that has attained a depression value of 1.440V was placed in caffeinated 2N H2SO4. Using a current density of 125 mA/cm2 the reduction of the caffeine commenced and proceeded fast, after 14 minutes the optimum for a pre-treated lead cathode was reached. After this treatment the electrode had a peak potential in (pure) 2N H2SO4 of 1.910V
Although this procedure is quite sound, once the author experienced a failure, where after 40 minutes only an increase of 0.003V was recorded. No reduction of caffeine occurred in that case.
VI. Maximum overvoltage
Considering the above it is not surprising that for an evaluation of the heights of the elevation values at the lead electrodes, the attempts, which were implemented in an undivided cell, are just as useful as the ones in a divided cell, if only each time fresh electrolytes were implemented and only the behaviour in the beginning of the attempt is drawn in consideration.
It can be concluded that there are no fixed limits on the 'specific overvoltage' of lead, even when considering the depression values. There are, however, several pointers which can be applied to specific conditions. The limits for peak potential values the author has in his extensive experimental work encountered are: (12°C)
10 mA/cm2 : between 1.760V and 1.868V
100 mA/cm2 : between 1.898V and 1.965V
125 mA/cm2 : between 1.902V and 2.037V
Values for pre-treated cathodes are slightly lower, and the bottom limits depend on duration of electrolytical oxidation.
βI have successfully [operated an] electrolytic reduction in a porous cup (flower pot), using a sheet lead cathode wrapped around a glass bottle standing inside the porous cup, cold water circulated through a two hole stopper in the bottle for cooling the electrode. The porous cup contained a catholyte of denatured alcohol, glacial acetic acid and HCl, in which the [substrate] was partially dissolved and the undissolved portion was kept in suspension by a small nylon propellor blade as is used for model boats on the end of a stainless steel rod about 2mm diameter for a propellor shaft, which was sheathed in plastic tubing and the tip and joint at the little propellor were sealed with RTV clear silicone. This stirrer was chucked into a high-speed overhead stirrer with the propellor as close to the bottom of the porous cup as possible and pitched tangent to the inside wall so as to swirl the agitated catholyte around the cathode in a circular flow.
βThe porous cup was set in the center of a much larger glass mixing bowl which contained the plain battery electrolyte anolyte and a sheet lead anode, and this outer bowl was itself set in a slightly shallower pan of cooling water. Everything was thus coaxially arranged with provision for cooling water entering the glass bottle in the center of the catholyte compartment and conducted through a long tube in the two hole stopper downwards to near the bottom inside the bottle, exiting through a short tube in the other hole in the stopper and carried through a flexible hose to the outer cooling bath for the anolyte cooling, a level maintained there by an overflow port at the desired depth, having a flexible hose for conducting the overflow back to the picnic cooler containing a block of ice and the circulating pump.
βThe power is provided to the cell by a variac and full-wave bridge rectifier and the current monitored by a good ammeter. Make-up alcohol will have to be added to the catholyte unless some sort of cover is provided for it with provision for reflux of the evaporating alcohol. A thermometer should also be suspended in the catholyte so that the reaction temperature can be monitored and a log sheet should be kept concerning the times for which a certain number of ampere hours have passed.
βThe reaction product will be in the catholyte[...]. Unreacted substrate or resinous by-products can be extracted with [solvent] and discarded, the aqueous phase filtered and freebased carefully with NaOH.
[...]
βLead is attacked by the catholyte and a sludge will be found from the erosion of the cathode. The anode is not attacked at all, just has a chocolate brown protective oxide. The best way of making these is to cut them from sheet lead in an " L " shape with the long leg being bent into a cylindrical form electrode and the short leg of the " L " providing a riser tab for connection of an alligator clip and power cable.
βI didn't do a lot of experimentation with this sort of thing because of unwanted interest of unsavoury characters, but the direction which I intended to go next was using a pool of mercury metal as a cathode, to see if it would perform better. IIRC the yields using the lead cathode were something near 80%.
I have a feeling there's already a download link for an electrochemistry text somewhere on the forum. It'd be better to save the server space if that's the case - do any of our senior chemists have a clue about this? EDIT: Here's another thread that discusses some simple electrochemistry. βThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." β Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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Wanted to pop my head in here and add some more notes....
I took a break from TLCs and different boiling preparations and have been using a lot of rue (no DMT). I had really great experiences on rue alone though I wondered if I might be missing something and caapi could be better, so I ordered some more. I had ordered from this NL vendor before and tried their caapi and had good experiences with it. It was 25g of 30x extract of yellow caapi, just boiled down concentrated brew per the description. Once it came I tried a low dose of 0.5-1g (again no DMT I have been using mostly only harmalas) and went about my day, the effect felt apparent, the same effect I got from the caapi last time, a smooth kind of in-the-moment-ness that was pretty good although subtle. Not totally unlike low doses of the rue. But I had learned rue could be pushed much further so tonight I was determined to have a visionary experience from just caapi. I had ~25g of 30x extract... should be equivalent to 750g of caapi. That night I took a much higher dose, around 10g of it and felt it hit me much harder than the low dose, got some usual harmala side effects like a desire to retract from light and excessive stimulation, a feeling of awakening energy from somewhere inside of me. I waited some more and wondering if it was just taking a while to hit, but it wasn't super strong like rue would have been. I took more and more and eventually I just ended up eating all 25g of the 30x extract... I had been taking 10g+ doses of the rue for a week or two now so I figured I'd be fine, sat back and waited for it to hit me.... But to my surprise I was left more or less sober. There was some mild dissociation but nothing like rue. If I took only 10g of the 30x and was out in nature/focused on something else I could have passed for pretty much sober. I was quite underwhelmed by the effect and eventually decided to take a walk around.. There were some other unpleasant side effects which I do not get from rue. I got itchy all over, and felt a bit over stimulated. I felt a pressure in my throat, my ears and sinuses got itchy... Not surprised with the absurd amount of densely concentrated plant matter I ate. Probably a big overload of something my body didn't like. What surprised me was how during all this I was mostly sober. There were some very mild visions but nothing which took much of any form. It was overall underwhelming and mildly unpleasant. Afterwards I wished I had just saved it so I could experience more of the pleasant flowing feeling low doses provide.
I am pretty astonished such a high amount of extract left me mostly sober. Wondering what may have happened. My first thought is that there was little to no harmaline in the extract. Plently of samples (see graphs on previous posts ITT) had very low or virtually no harmaline in it. We know pretty much for a fact harmaline is active because of the many reports of high doses of harmaline producing visions in literature... Harmine I'm not so sure. In Tihkal the entry is quite undescriptive with everything from 'irrational agitation, starting a fight with a man in the street after taking 30mg' and 'no effect after taking 1g' .. I am curious to know if anyone has a source of someone having visions off pure harmine or THH. I also think there was little or no harmaline in my extract because it did not have the unmistakable foul numbing taste even small amount of a rue manske or the seeds do.
Another possibility is that my extract was totally bunk and had very little harmalas in it.. And that my low dose was entirely placebo. I am planning to do a TLC on the goo vs a rue manske... I'm betting the harmaline spot might be basically gone. I know there were at least some harmalas there because I got some characteristic harmala tracers for a bit. Also got a lot of mental feelings which felt like harmala but that is more subjective.
I have read a report from a user saying they had visions off only 10g of black caapi, which is rumored to have more harmaline... If that's true that could explain a bit. Me taking what should have been ~50x his dose and not experiencing much. Clearly harmine inhibits MAO but maybe is not as psychoactive as harmaline.
Also wanted to correct myself, in a previous post I referred to endlessness' TLC results but I misinterpreted them. I think he had a different light than mine, he used 2 different lights, and the one that looks more similar to mine, showed very little harmaline and THH, mostly harmine in his cold water extract. This disspells that the potentially enzymatic conversion happens without heat, it seems to need heat to proceed. In this TLC I am curious what color the THH will be. The bright yellow (natural?) or dark blue (synthetic, racemic isomer?)? I think a bright yellow spot could give credit to the enzymatic boiling conversion theory as someone said enzymes would have a preference to one isomer over the other.
May also try some black caapi to see how that compares to rue... BTW took a couple grams of rue the morning after the failed caapi experience and had the usual intensity of effects, even moreso than the 25g of 30x caapi I would say! Just without the extreme itchyness and overstimulation feeling.
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Boundary condition
Posts: 8617 Joined: 30-Aug-2008 Last visit: 07-Nov-2024 Location: square root of minus one
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"Caapi extract"... that could even be the residue that's left after most of the alkaloids have been removed. This can be put down as one of the perils of using material of essentially unknown providence. Did you ever do the tlc on the remnants? βThere is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." β Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1111 Joined: 18-Feb-2017 Last visit: 12-Jul-2024
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Those caapi extracts are often weak, nothing like what you'd get from cooking your own vine.
Harmaline causes tracers, harmine doesn't. Harmine with THH can be visionary, but the most obvious effect is the euphoria.
In acetate salt form I haven't noticed harmaline to taste worse than harmine or THH.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 4031 Joined: 28-Jun-2012 Last visit: 05-Mar-2024
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Jagube wrote:...Harmaline causes tracers, harmine doesn't... Hmm, I was definitely in tracers walhalla on traditional aya, not on all aya's though. Could have been other admixes than harmaline then.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 1111 Joined: 18-Feb-2017 Last visit: 12-Jul-2024
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Jees wrote:Hmm, I was definitely in tracers walhalla on traditional aya, not on all aya's though. Could have been other admixes than harmaline then.
Some aya brews are rich in harmaline, while others contain no detectable amounts of it. I get tracers from pure harmaline and no tracers from pure harmine. "Pure" meaning nearly pure, extracted from rue, mansked and separated with ammonia. So why it could have been other admixes, it is quite likely you experienced tracers with harmaline-rich aya brews. I have a red vine (B. muricata) resin that give me tracers.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 14191 Joined: 19-Feb-2008 Last visit: 15-Nov-2024 Location: Jungle
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Ive def gotten tracers from pure harmine too, though prob it takes higher doses than harmaline.
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In the gap between thoughts nonconceptual wisdom shines continuously.
Posts: 207 Joined: 16-Sep-2017 Last visit: 11-Mar-2024 Location: β alembic β
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mooai! Thank you for your time and resources you put into researching and experimenting. I find all the information very interesting and useful for possible future experimenting. Surely in the furure a way to work with this will be found. Work like yours is of great benefit. Not to mention the many great contributions of other members. 
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Mushroom Explorer
Posts: 538 Joined: 18-Jan-2013 Last visit: 19-Aug-2024 Location: Mushvile
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Triglav wrote:mooai! Thank you for your time and resources you put into researching and experimenting. I find all the information very interesting and useful for possible future experimenting. Surely in the furure a way to work with this will be found. Work like yours is of great benefit. Not to mention the many great contributions of other members. Spoken like a true gentleman! Thank you mooai I am certifiably insane, as such all posts written by me should be regarded as utter nonsense or attempts to get attention in fact everything I write here is a lie !
I hope in some way, my posts and replies may of helped you, I hope you like what I have said here if not feel free to send me a none flame PM
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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Glad you guys liked it  you've motivated me to get off my butt and do the final promised TLCs on my boiled caapi extract. I will refer back to endlessness' THH thread https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=35984 where he analyzed caapi's THH vs. synthed THH. Only looking at his 254nm UV pics, his 365nm UV looks much different than mine. Interestingly in my caapi test there doesn't seem to be any of the natural yellow THH like you can see in his/my rue and his cold water extract of caapi. The color of THH in my plate looks more similar to synthed THH. Here's another user who synthed THH for comparison https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=681466#post681466My first thought that this does NOT suggest enzymatic conversion in boiling of THH as originally thought, as the different colors of THH are thought to be the different isomers and an enzyme would probably take preference over one isomer, (or so I've heard from posters more knowledgeable in chemistry) and that appears to be the bright yellow kind as is seen in natural rue extracts and in the caapi there too. I've also heard it said that the 2 THH isomers balance and inter convert by simple boiling, so it's possible that's what is happening after the enzymatic conversion into one isomer, but there was no change in appearance of the THH/apparent conversion in any of my rue boilings so I don't know. And finally it appears to me there is no harmaline in this yellow caapi as I expected. In small amounts harmaline has that light blue glow but that bottom spot is just dark, I think it's some form of THH. But come on I kinda already knew there was no harmaline. Gobbled down 20gs of extract with barely any water without a hitch. Harmaline causes severe involuntary gagging every time  Attached is a pic of the one TLC I did... I tried to do some more but my rue is giving me trouble in separating again and I can't seem to get the caapi more clear than this as it's a crude extract. Another observation I made was in this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...pmc/articles/PMC2878139/ which shows very high THH from some of the vines/plant material... "Plant material was extracted by either Coffee Maker (Mr. Coffee®, ISX-43) or Accelerated Solvent Extractor (Dionex®, ASE-200) using H2O as a solvent." Fact check me but I recall looking that ASE-200 thing up and it's accelerated... meant to quickly extract, so no long boiling. Around 25 mins extractions from the manual of it I had read. Coffee maker may be even shorter than that, 10-15 mins? So this may mean all the THH is converted that quickly??? So some interesting observations about caapi but now I'm interested in that mystery spot in my cold water rue extracts that appears to go away upon boiling. Definitely gonna be playing with cold water extracts for a while now. Also really want to try growing the seeds, especially now that I suspect the existence of alkaloids highly susceptible to degradation in them. I know one poster said the experience felt different and he suspected high THH content in the fresh seeds. Could be a similar thing to morning glories, totally fresh seeds are said to be much more psychedelic with little or no nausea. mooai attached the following image(s):  no harmaline caapi vs rue.png (8,285kb) downloaded 76 time(s).
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 856 Joined: 15-Nov-2009 Last visit: 17-Feb-2024
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"Also really want to try growing the seeds, especially now that I suspect the existence of alkaloids highly susceptible to degradation in them. I know one poster said the experience felt different and he suspected high THH content in the fresh seeds" Would that be me? Sprouted seeds are definitely the first thing to study in this context. Just as with freshly harvested seeds, it has something different and special - much more immersive and has much higher time dilation. Δ° haven't done a chemical analysis but it would be interesting to know what it is regardless of whether it is thh or something else. The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the βrepresentativeβ of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn whatβs left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.
~ Pablo Amaringo
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 127 Joined: 12-Apr-2020 Last visit: 18-Jan-2022
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dithyramb wrote:Would that be me?
Sprouted seeds are definitely the first thing to study in this context. Just as with freshly harvested seeds, it has something different and special - much more immersive and has much higher time dilation. Δ° haven't done a chemical analysis but it would be interesting to know what it is regardless of whether it is thh or something else. Yep! Didn't remember your name. Would love to hear any advice you have about growing...or even sprouting. I'm not a very good gardener haha. What's your process for sprouting? I tried both wrapped in a moist paper towel in a bag for a week or so, as well a bunch in a jar w/ airholes moistened for a week or so but nothing much happened except for rotting smell. Where do you get good potting soil for these guys? I assume I can't just use regular dirt/potting soil like I do for my other plants. They like it sandy right? I'm in hardiness zone 6b with a pretty cold winter so not sure if they would survive it. Might be able to bring them inside for it.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 856 Joined: 15-Nov-2009 Last visit: 17-Feb-2024
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Summer is the easiest time to sprout these seeds. Δ° just sandwich the seeds between two layers of cotton and keep both layers soaking wet while leaving them under full sun. My seeds sprout in three days in this way. A stable hot temperature does the trick. Δ°n cooler weather it can take up to two weeks. Also make sure your seeds are viable. Δ° always use seeds which i harvested the previous fall. When i plant them i just use regular soil from the forest around. Δ° have not grown them all the way yet though. Δ° hope to try that soon. The consciousness of plants is a constant source of information for medicine, alimentation, and art, and an example of the intelligence and creative imagination of nature. Much of my education I owe to the intelligence of these great teachers. Thus I consider myself to be the βrepresentativeβ of plants, and for this reason I assert that if they cut down the trees and burn whatβs left of the rainforests, it is the same as burning a whole library of books without ever having read them.
~ Pablo Amaringo
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