We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Hydrates of the Harmala HCl Salts Options
 
blue.magic
#1 Posted : 5/25/2020 12:32:31 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1104
Joined: 11-Feb-2017
Last visit: 18-Jan-2021
Both harmine and harmaline hydrochloride seem to form hydrates.

This might not make much difference pharmacologically (the dihydrate is 'only' 17% heavier compared to anhydrous HCl salt), but it's a huge difference from other standpoints (analytical, economical) and the presence of water might be an issue when recrystallizing harmalas from other solvents than water (?).

Another issue is that the water of crystallization skews melting point measurement when assessing purity.

I assume the 'Manske' procedure results predominantly in the dihydrate salt, as harmalas crystallize from aqueous solution, picking up water in the process.

I am still pondering the idea of recrystallizing harmalas from anhydrous solvents, avoiding multiple 'Manskes' and lots of salt (which is a water contaminant).

Another advantages of the anhydrous salt are higer potency and less bulk (per gram). It has also more specific melting point.

I found some indirect suggestions that harmine and harmaline crystallize differently in various solvents, giving an opportunity of further purification of the pH-separated compounds. Finally, it seems having a solid acetate crystals is possible, which is also attractive:



To have a better idea about the weight differences between freebase and various HCl hydrates, here are the weights corresponding to 1 mole of harmaline, both absolute and relative (to freebase):

freebase: 214.263 g (1.00)
hydrochloride: 250.723 g (1.17)
hydrochloride hydrate: 268.738 g (1.25)
hydrochloride dihydrate: 286.75354 g (1.34)
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
downwardsfromzero
#2 Posted : 5/25/2020 3:53:06 PM

Boundary condition

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 8617
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 07-Nov-2024
Location: square root of minus one
As it happens I was thinking it might be worth trying recrystallisation of harmala salts via boiling aqueous ethanol followed by refrigeration. So, for anhydrous salts we'd need to use absolute ethanol perhaps - but does this form the fabled harmala red on evaporation?




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
blue.magic
#3 Posted : 5/25/2020 9:48:21 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1104
Joined: 11-Feb-2017
Last visit: 18-Jan-2021
Don't know about the harmala red, but I had ethanolic harmala tinctures of very high concentration (dissolved as acetate) and it seemed stable.
 
blue.magic
#4 Posted : 6/6/2020 7:07:02 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1104
Joined: 11-Feb-2017
Last visit: 18-Jan-2021
I've got only about 50 g freebase from 100 g harmala.HCl. This suggests either heavy salt contamination (unlikely) or presence of hydrates (or both).

I will try to vacuum-dry the HCl salt to see if there is significant weight loss ( => hydrates).

To remove salt contamination, perhaps just quick washing of the crystals with ice cold dilute hydrochloric acid will help.

I will also try to make HCl salt directly by neutralizing the freebase and evaporating the solvent. Once the harmalas are pure enough, the conversion can be done without Manske.

Recrystallizing freebase from alcohol is also very appealing.
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.014 seconds.