Edit: I added "low doses (no visuals)" to the title


Hello fellows
I have a serious problem/solution that I need some second opinions on, from people who know what I'm talking about.

My dad suffers from major clinical depression and has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. He has been on many different ssri's that work for a while and then fizzle out, as they tend to do in my experience.
The ones he's been on for the last year seems to have had the best results out of all of them but now are loosing their positive effects. This has been manifesting as:
- emotionally distancing
- sleeping a lot
- blaming others for everything, never blaming himself
- argumentative narcissism (he can't handle being wrong or being challenged)
- rages, where he will completely loose his mind over trivial things and will roar, break things and some times hits himself (his head usually)

During these rage moments he'll express how everyone would be better off without him and he should just kill himself. The phrase "I hate myself" is usually expressed and I personally think that this is the core of the problem as well as brain chemistry.
My dad is a giant teddy bear, generally he is a very cheery, jovial type, loves a good laugh and loves those around him. He has so much love to give but he thinks that he does not deserve to be loved.
Its as if he keeps this despair all bottled up and the thing can cause it to burst out.. I was like this for a long lime.
After these rage episodes, he calms down, is honest about how he behaved, apologies and promises are made and all seems well.... until it happens again.

Recently he has been getting a lot worse again and the rages are more frequent. It just seems to be a downwardly spiraling cycle that will not end well.

My dad knows about my use of psychedelics and is kind of ok with it.
He some what jokingly says 'you're gonna loose your mind'.
He has had plenty of drugs in his life
He has taken acid at least once
Magic mushrooms (I think)
Pharma Amphetamines
Alcoholic (not currently)
long time weed use (not currently)

My dad is a hardcore atheist and laughs at spiritualistic ideas. If science hasn't "proven" it and/or it sounds to far out then he doesn't want to hear about it..

After the last rage episode I put the idea out there that dmt could help him. Only mentioning how it has helped me.

I myself suffer from clinical depression and chronic anxiety. It would not surprise me if I was diagnosed as bipolar..

Dmt has done what nothing else could, help me to deal with my mental illness. Not cure it but act as a catalyst for the development of skills that help me manage my mental health.
To name a few things,
-it has made me gratful for and apriciative of everything in existence.
-It has made me more aware of myself, i can catch myself being mean or hurtful and once noticed I have to make a conscious decision weather or not to continue doing so.
-Most benifical to my mental health is it has shown me how to love myself. I'm 25 and since my early teens up until 2-3 years ago i was a very angry and hateful person. These emotions where generally directed inward but sometimes spilled out and hurt those around me, mainly my family.. Which seems to be the same problem ny dad has, though for far longer.

Psychedelics, dmt especially, have changed who i am for the better and i want my dad to just consider the possibility that it could help him.

If he is open to the idea then I will expand on the risk vs reward thing, potential positives vs negatives. I'll try and explain what he could be in for.
I will make it clear that it has traumatized people and given them ptsd, though a lot of those people also say that the worst trips sparked the most posative change in the long run.
I just don't want to send him over the edge, you know....
In the end it will be his decision but I want him to understand what he's getting into.

I know there isn't really an exact question here so I guess what I'm asking is how would a fellow psychonaut approach this situation?
How would you clearly and concisely convey the nature of the potential positives and negatives without having him do months of research?

Much love and thanks

First of all, sorry you have gone through hard times and still deal with hardships.




And what oneself is getting into, for if this goes south crippling guilt could be the least of one's problems.

To give such a strong drug to a senior who has diagnosed bipolar disorder, obvious depression, and mental and emotional instability with fits of rage and self harm included, is just absurd.

One is not downplaying the idea or one's desire to help one's father, but rather think that there are many things that the man you describe has to learn and go through. It simply cant be that one gives him 50mg DMT, he has a breathrough, and then becomes enlightened and happy because he has seen what lies beyond.

Happiness and mental health and having the right outlook on life...one is not sure what DMT has to do with it.

Was it solely DMT which shifted your perpective to a happier, better one?

One has personally never administered DMT to the type of man one described, probably no one on this thread has, so no one will know for sure how he will react.

But I wouldnt risk it.

I would find other approaches; love him, sneak in movies of jesus or buddah into his life, or lay books or poetry of great power laying on the table. Basically give him things to learn, hobbies, history, it could even be social gatherings, a seniors club or something.

Take him om a vacation, a cruise around the world, or perhaps a cross country drive were you both can re connect. Changes of scenery or circumstances can make seniors regain their gusto for life.

Also it is a fact that not everyone is supposed to be enlightened or have an exceptional mind and heart...

The thing with DMT is that more stuff can get in than what a person can handle...there are great dangers to this.

Maybe this video is of interest

Bipolar and psychedelics do not tend to mix well. I advise a different solution. Anapanasati meditation for several hours a day is a good alternative.

Instructions are here.
https://www.accesstoinsi...taka/mn/mn.118.than.html

Anapanasati is just simple in/out breathe awareness, with total awareness of the body anchored with special attention to the breathing. Be careful with the body, because sitting in the posture for hours at a time can indeed cause damage to the back and knees, even if you do it properly.

Tripping should be avoided entirely for anybody with bipolar or schizophrenia or any such potentially manic or psychotic mental tendencies. No responsible mental health practitioner would recommend it - period.

Bear in mind, if this goes wrong, he could lose control and kill himself. Do you want to risk that? Because right now he sounds like a suicide risk. If this goes wrong, you will live with the fact that you pointed him to the edge of the cliff for the rest of your life. I can promise you, living with that would be much worse than him killing himself and you wondering for the rest of your life if psychedelics would have helped. One of them is hypothetically, maybe you could have helped, and the other is knowing, definitely, you personally were responsible for his death. They are both terrible, but one is far, far worse.

Anapanasati. 3 hours daily, at a minimum. And if that sounds like "too much" --- then why the heck would such a massive gamble as feeding a person with bipolar a psychedelic seem appropriate?

Thanks for the swift replies guys

For clarification I have no intention of just handing him the pipe asap if at all.
Trying to explain psychedelics is like trying to grab smoke with your hands at best. And I am not good at expressing my thoughts and feelings when i get put on the spot.
I was not asking for a quick over and done with explanation of dmt, though i kind of did, more just how others might describe it to someone who asks about it.

I understand the dangers of such a proposition for an individual such as this.
Guilt is the least of my worries, my main worry is that it could break him and make it worse.. I trust psychedelics but i cant help but hesitate.
Also the thought, what if he violently flips out on a high dose, did cross my mind. He is a big bloke! He is only 57 by the way.

The only reason I even propose such an approach is because I am very much the same as him when it comes to mental illness and psychological issues.
Not to say 'if it worked for me, it will work for him', no that would be naive, but it does make me think that the whole 'mental illness+psychedelics is never a good idea' thing is not so straight forward.
My dad needs to love himself! The empathy induced by lowish doses of psychedelics in my experience helps do that.

Mentioning his stance on spiritualism may have made my intention a little unclear.
The soul intention is not for him to have a spiritual awakening but more to have a shift in perception.
My higher dose dmt breakthrough experiences have reshaped the way I view the universe but my lower dose changa/dmt experiences (no real visuals) have giving a lot more insight into myself, not that high doses didn't but the lower doses seem more focused on ME rather than the entire universe.
Being able to view myself from a 3rd party perspective has been invaluable to my mental health!
That being said my higher dose experiences may have shaped the way I interact with lower doses sooo.. hard to say.
I have introduced a few friends to dmt and I always start them off with a low dose 5-15mg (a few puffs from some dmt ejuice) to gauge how they might react but mainly to ease them into it.

I would say dmt is the main reason for the changes I have gone through. I used to take lsd every month or so for fun, back then i never thought of it more then 'well that was trippy', this was years before I found dmt.
Dmt is the only psychedelic I had taken around the time of my metamorphosis almost 2 years ago.
I am currently considering microdosing magic mushrooms as a recent 1g mushroom experience seemed to eliviate my depression and anxiety for a month or 2 on a physical (maybe pharmacological?) level where as with dmt it was more of a mental strength to push through it.
Maybe a low dose (1-2g) mushroom trip every so often might help him.

When I was younger we went on vacations and he was actually more likely to flip out when on them. Been to different countries, same thing.
I usually have trippy music, movies shows and talks going on.

We actually just moved from a suburban type area out to a small country town. We are all still adjusting to the change so I'm sure this is playing a role in his more frequent breakdowns.

My mum is real into meditation and yoga and is encouraging him to try it. I'm gonna join in as well to try make it more of a group thing.

"Responsible mental health practitioners" also recommend taking ssri medication indefinetly and other meds that just numb you to the problem as well as numb you to everything else so I don't fully trust their opinions..
Psychiatrists in my experience have a 'here, just put this band-aid on that gaping wound' approach. Might work for some but not for all.

It just seems like no matter what we try it's just same old same old in the end...

Again my lack of expressive skills can cloud my intension, so my bad if it sounded like I was determined to make this happen.
More of a hypothetical last resort.

Thank you for your thoughts and empathy. The energy that radiates from this forum brings me to tears sometimes

Much love

Let me put it another way. SSRI's are a controversial subject, so I'll frame it in a way that might make sense to you.

A responsible mental health practicioner will prescribe medical marijuana for veterans suffering from PTSD as a way of managing their PTSD symptoms while trying to find a way to cure the PTSD. However, they will not prescribe medical marijuana if that person has a contraindication for medical marijuana - such as a predisposition to psychosis. If someone is at risk of psychosis, medical marijuana should not be prescribed, even if it would help most other people suffering from PTSD, because it would probably make everything much worse.

Similarly here: if it was just depression, I'd be saying go for it. But since bipolar is in the mix, don't risk it. From what it sounds like, a manic episode could easily kill your father. You obviously sound concerned, but from what you have described, I am unsure if you fully appreciate how unhinged he sounds in your description. It's very common for people to get used to how fucked up people who are close to them are, and it can make you miss just how dangerous their situation is. My brother, who was a major poly-substance addict (meth, opiates, crack) - I just got used to him being like that for 10 years, and even though I knew this was something that could and probably would kill him - even though I knew it, I was stunned the day he died.

From where I'm sitting, it sounds like a psychedelic intervention has great potential for lethal consequences. A 57 year old bipolar patient who (literally) beats himself over the head is not a good candidate for psychedelic use. A lethally manic episode could easily occur. Many mental health practicioners do underground psychedelic therapy, but the people this underground network filters out are those prone to psychosis and mania, because psychedelics exacerbate that. Medical marijuana, which is legal in many places, is treated exactly the same way, because marijuana has basically the same safety profile. It's awesome, if you DON'T have psychotic or manic tendencies. If you do - it can result in murder and suicide, or just a permanent ruin of what was once a merely unstable mental life.

Not a risk worth taking. He's made it 57 years so far, I wouldn't make that gamble.

Dynamite experiments can go south.
I hope another route/means gives a better chance for solace to your peculiar situation

Oh man, psychiatric illnesses are such a burden. They are probably the most difficult illnesses to cope with, as it often is ones abbillity to cope itself, that is being affected.

I realy wish there was a silver bullet. Some advice to just take substance X, or just do this or that.

But there isn't. Each person is unique. Each mind is unique. And therefore each illness of the mind is unique as well.
In some cases it is an ongoing fight, that never realy ends.

You can live with it though, and learn to cope. Especially when there are people around like yourself, who care and who are understanding.

That realy does help.
It makes all the difference in the world, when in your darkest hours, you know that there is something to live for, that there are things in your life of great value. Even if you can't realy feel it at that very moment, just knowing it is so, can help you through it.

So i can't realy give you any advise on treatments or medication. But i can say that it is of unspeakable value and great help to cherish the good moments you both have together.

Howdy

Have you read up on microdosing shrooms?

After a bit of trail and error on dosage I've gotten a good practice going.
So due to work I mainly microdose once on weekends, so that could work well for your dad to highlight the contrast between days off shrooms and on.
I weight 90kg at 6'3 so I dose 0.500g to 0.450g in the morning on an empty stomach and skip breakfast, at about 4-6hrs in I get a nice release of serotonin, all the while not tripping and productive throughout the day.

Microdosing could have a positive impact on neurogenesis/ neuroplasticity which means as you feel the positive serotonin release your brain could become more used to reproducing this state as it's being exposed to the feel good serotonin while microdosing.
https://www.google.com/u...aw1GFNgbwb40LTzyL6SLVwoo

Alot more on microdosing out there, sign up to the maps podcast on the castbox app

Hope this helps

I would say it's too risky. If he takes DMT there is a lot of ingrained internal darkness he will likely face, even at low doses. I've experienced significant discomfort and suffering at low doses.

The real risk is that, to my mind, bipolar is on the same spectrum as psychosis. The highs are a coping mechanism for the depression, i.e. 'the more down I feel, the more hype I will generate to feel amazing.' The thing is, this behaviour has gone from something under conscious control, to an uncontrolled pathological response. The next step on from this is 'no matter how bad it gets, I live in my own AMAZING world' - which is psychosis in a nutshell.

TL;DR- he could be overwhelmed and it could trigger a psychotic break.

I would advise against it.

If your father has a serious negative reaction to it, could you live with that burden on your conscience for the rest of your life? And also by extension all those who in turn would be affected by his negative reaction, in particular others within your wider family?



This statement here should cause you to reflect on your own motives really. No one should be taking psychedelics, from cannabis through to DMT, without first doing extensive research and preparation on the subject first. Cannabis would be like a bicycle - you could jump on and maybe graze your knees if you fall, or potentially crack your head at worst. DMT would be like a 1000cc sports motorcycle.. you don't just jump on that without proper preparation and training under your belt unless you have a death wish. Maybe a bit of an extreme metaphor, but you get the general point.

You should also remember that your father may not have the mental flexibility for such a powerful shift in perception. As you get older you get more set in stone, more rigid. A powerful experience, especially a traumatic one, could really be detrimental, especially given his already precarious mental state.

People have to be naturally inclined and curious first. Psychedelics shouldn't be seen as a magical pill to any mental ailment, given that accurate definitions of such mental ailments haven't even been established properly! You're playing with fire in my opinion.

Above all of this I think it is a disservice to you and your abilities. To think that DMT could do a better job than you if you were to emotionally connect with your father. Be there for him the best you can. But also understand each man goes alone and has to wrestle with these things himself, that's part of our journey, as painful as it may be to observe.

Also you may not be fully aware of the full extent of his personal history, which is even more reason not to suggest a powerful psychedelic without serious preparation and consideration - I would still advise against it.

- Re-read your observations on his behaviour. I think you should definitely take the natural approach; love him as best you can, try to promote or encourage more healthy behaviours.

just to re-state, i DONT think your dad should be microdosing dmt, microdosing shrooms yes as they have a compounding affect yet no tripping.

as far as i understand it bipolar is a major depression with up and down mood swings so far less risk than anyone with schizoid or Schizophrenia, yet i still would not recommend dmt to anyone that has major depression.

i also found this on a quick google search, i would not recommend thc to anyone that has not had a long relationship with it as it may potentiate things negatively due to the psychoactive nature , maybe cbd?
the results below on mushrooms are very interesting as in a microdose they are not psychoactive.

https://maps.org/researc...for-Bipolar-Disorder.pdf

Nobody can really make that call but you. People can recommend against it, but imo do what you feel is right. Nobody knows your family better than you do, still though, take into account the potential risks and make sure things are well prepared and use the right approach. These are powerful medicines. If you want things to be a little gentler, perhaps try adding in some Lemon Balm tea? 3 to 4.5 grams of dried Lemon Balm leaf should be good enough for smoothing out the come up and making things gentler, i know it does very well with oral DMT, but smoked DMT i'm not sure, still though, maybe try it for yourself first and see how it goes? I know it can be a difficult decision to make, but people need help one way or the other and people deserve to be happy/at peace and stable/sane-minded. If it were not for oral DMT, i would not be where i am today. These tools could help so many people, but must be taken seriously, under proper circumstances, and the right amount of preparation with the right approach. Unfortunately we currently don't have these things in therapeutic settings except for within clinical studies, but it's worth a shot imo if you think you can provide it and use it within the right context.

But as i said, it's up to you and him, but remember, start low and work your way up. I would personally recommend Changa over pure DMT though, like Harmala-heavy Changa, trust me, it makes a huge difference.

There's something all of you are missing. You're all talking about what Dimethylentity should do or shouldn't, or what they feel is right, etc. Here's the thing. We're often self-medicating, but we're not medicating others. We're not responsible for our parents - they are responsible for themselves.

A late middle aged man who has tripped and smoked his part has enough understanding and background to decide what he wants, and go about it himself. This is the umpteenth time some 20-something wannabe wise man comes here and sparks a discussion about what would be best for their mother or father.

Here's the thing. You told your father about how DMT helped you. The next step isn't you deciding whether and how you should dose him, it's to give him all your resources (like the address of this site) so he can do his own research and decide whether and how he wants to dose himself.

Spot on!

Informed choice.

/Y

If it was for myself or a close relative and deciding to give entheogens a good chance, I would consider going to South America and find a well respected practitioner for a dedicated personal set of sessions, no group stuff. The practitioner would be well informed about the incentive and it's peculiarities, and he/she would agree in advance to take on the errand.

The whole voyage would be a huge 'set and setting' and coming out of the usual living format would be a paramount element of the whole. The place would be suited to go bananas like in a jungle garden of sorts. Your typical western resort would raise suspicion and potential implications, but not out there, that would be part of choosing for South America.

I would not care too much if it was about cacti or aya as a main lever for change.

I don't think much in terms of SA magic to rely on, but just to have a complete set of conditions to have your huge shifts happening, in a place that doesn't draw attention easily.

For some persons this might be a ticket for complete disaster, I was just thinking out loud for myself actually. So far the need hasn't raised to do it there, but it's an option I consider if so.

I know I keep bringing this up on these sorts of topics but has your Dad at least tried some kind of therapy (legit therapy not some weird stuff or anything)? If hes not even willing to do that I'd be wary of him trying psychedelics. Also I don't mean just seeing a psychiatrist who just hands out pills and asks a few questions. I mean a good therapist (not a quack) that he clicks with. Once you have a good understanding of what is going on and shown a willingness to change then psychedelics might be a good adjunct.

Hey all



Sorry to hear about your brother
My heart go's out to you.

Over 20 years of desensitization to this behaviour is something I had not considered..




I know it's not as simple as just taking this or that and problem solved.
For me psychedelics put a spotlight on all my behaviours and burst open the doors of change. I however have to go through that door and conciously make the changes myself. That spotlight is the helping hand.
It's an on going process.
That is the basis of the thought behind thinking psychedelics could help my dad a lot.
But of course not all people would make those changes or even have that experience.

Learning to cope is where I'm at now. I used to just try and distract and numb myself to it however I could, mainly with drugs.




Yea I've looked into microdosing a bit, it is intriguing to say the least.
It is the summer mushroom season where i am and im just waiting for some decent rain.

Cbd is on my list to try as well.
Recently I've been experimenting with lowish doses (2-5mg) of decarboxylated crude cannabis extract tinctures sublingually.
These days smoking just a tiny bit of herb makes me very anxious and puts me inside my head to much but for whatever reason the sublingual tinctures just have this relaxing but not to sedative body feel with barely any headspace shift.




I like you. Abrassivly honest

Well if I was a "wannabe wise man", which as far as I'm concerned implies a lack of wisdom and cockiness, then I probably wouldnt have felt the urge to consult with others about this. I would have just gone ahead with it...

I don't think I know what's best for others at all.. Half the time I don't know what is best for myself.
I'm not trying to make decisions for him, I just want to hypothesize on what might be the way to go about it, if done at all, with people who actually know about this stuff.

I told him about it, said he should look into this stuff, and that if he wants to talk about it, I'm right here.

Sorry if this topic has come up time and time again. I just felt that I should talk to some like minded people who understand where I'm coming from with this.




I understand what you're saying. I should have put it a different way, I didn't mean it in a quick, short, this is all you need to know sort of way. I meant it more in the way of arousing someone's curiosity and opening their mind to the idea that psychedelics can do more then just make you 'trip balls dude'.
As for the part you highlighted, same thing but with an emphasis on the potential dangers. I was really only asking how others might word it.
All ways do your own reseach!

I tried to keep the post shortish but maybe I shouldn't have as context is lacking a bit.





ShamensStamen,

Changa was my initial thought, i feel that harmala heavy changa has helped me more than just dmt on its own.
My dad wants to get off the ssri's and see how getting back to baseline goes.
I wouldn't feel comfortable even taking just dmt on its own while on them, doesn't seem like a good idea and changa definetly not!
I FEEL that it could seriously help but when I THINK about it, it doesn't seem like a good idea.
Psychedelics have shown me to embrace the moment, not think so much all the time, to trust and go with it, that has served me well but for a situation this sensitive I really don't know.. Hence this thread.







This is why I don't take ssri's anymore. I would rather endure the rollercoaster ride as opposed to feeling nothing at all, they would just zombifie. That is my experience with ssri's, I know they can work for some.





Things are doing better now.
Shit had really hit the fan the day I posted this thread and I think I was in a bit of shock and desperate.

Everyone's input is much appreciated!
Other perspectives of this are invaluable.
I am so grateful places like the nexus exist.

First of all, your father all the best.
Never got along well with my dad.

If you still have an opinion, there are certainly some substances that can help depression and other psychotic sufferers.
Some psychedelics such as psylocibin or perhaps LSD could give some hope for some.

Psylocibin is partially used in studies.

I'm very unsure about DMT in this matter.
There's probably nothing that DMT can not show you, but the demons you fight with are always with you.

Can it help with depression?
It probably will not hurt.
Even if it may raise new "problems".

Meanwhile, I think that the cause must be corrected.
Unfortunately, I think that the cause of depression in some cases can be found in our way of life today and in society as a whole.

It is not easy to "cure" psychic problems with a substance.
It is a process where you have to work on yourself over and over again.

This is not easy, but as long as you have not completely given up on yourself, there is always hope.

Hey, I've got some personal experience with bipolar disorder myself, clinically diagnosed. PTSD, too. Anyway, I'd highly recommend he you and he do some research on SSRIs, as they have been shown to have little positive impact on bipolar disorder. In fact, they can actually increase the occurrences of manic episodes. Of course, speak to medical professionals before you make any changes or even any assumptions on his personal treatment. I'm rather shocked his doc doesn't know this or at least hasn't considered this for your pop. Is he seeing a clinical psychiatrist or just a PCP? I highly recommend he see a highly-rated psychiatrist to dial in his meds. Please do this! It can make all the difference in the world.

Shoot me a PM if you have any questions from someone suffering from something extremely similar. The symptoms you described sound similar to mine. I'm sure you know, but maybe you need to be reminded, he is suffering and very challenged to live a normal life.

Once I graduate beyond New Member, I plan to post the details of my first massive dose of DMT (~55mg) for additional discussion. This was two weeks ago and I'm looking forward to sharing the story with the community and anyone willing to engage in a discussion.

Welcome to the forum!

I am looking forward to reading your report when you are ready.

Might I ask in advance, do you hold the experience in a positive light?