I'm still new here, but I've lurked for years and have been both growing and studying herbalism and entheogens for a long time. While reading through the incredible compendium of this site, a question began forming in my mind, hell in my soul really, and just wanted to see how others with similar interests would respond.

Is extraction or purification of DMT and other psychoactives merely a symptom of Western Materialism, and is materialism truly an antonym of spiritualism?

I guess the knee jerk response, for myself as well, is 'Why not?', but I think this is likely a culturally subjective response.

Take Coca leaves for example. For thousands of years indigenous people simply chewed or quidded them for a stimulant effect that was used to stave off hunger, fatigue, and pain particularly on long journeys or arduous tasks. When used this way, the practice is relatively harmless and a long cherished traditional medicinal. Europeans show up and a few hundred years later the alkaloids are isolated and Nancy Reagan was on the television telling Americans to 'Just say no' to the ravaging epidemic of highly addictive freebased cocaine. Opium is another example of this uniquely western phenomena. For thousands of years the dried latex of the opium poppy was used for pain relief, as a treatment for insomnia and other ailments and a respected entheogen. Once this practiced arrived in Europe, the well known but often misrepresented 'Spice Routes' were suddenly war worthy and a few hundred years later, the alkaloids were isolated, later synthesized and now, particularly in the US, we see daily reports of overdose deaths and god only knows the evils committed as a 'mute reminder of the poppy fields and graves'.

There are countless examples of this exploitation, from Ephedra to sugar. It's a pattern that now seemingly repeats itself with ayahuasca. Catholicism arrives in the new world and fervently destroys entire cultures, quite literally damning them for their use of entheogenic tryptamine containing plants and now a few hundred years later, here we are with teks on how to extract the pure chemical essence of the plant spirits for a fifteen minute bullet train ride through hyperspace. Before this experience was earned throughout history by training, selective initiations, dedication to a particular and stringent lifestyle, the practice of secrecy and the trust and respect of a community. Now it can be fast tracked with a trip to the hardware store and plant materials ordered from strangers on the internet. As I browse through all these threads and teks, and I see so many pictures of crystalline substances and read bewildering or fascinating trip reports I sometimes find myself feeling almost repulsed by them and I wonder if this is the true path, or are we as a culture suffering from some ineffable ailment possibly deriving from the suppression of spirituality inherent in the traditions of humanism/materialism. Have we really earned this experience, and however profound and inalienable it might be, I wonder if we are lacking the cultural requisites to truly integrate or fully appreciate it's obvious spiritual implications?

I know... I know... "See the Attitude page for more information." This post might ruffle a feather or two coming from a noob, but I would be interested in hearing any thoughts on this as it really does give me pause at times and I'm not above hypocrisy given my own interests in this genre. I'm an herbalist at heart, I grow a hell of alot of exotic plants and I've studied entheogens and religions for a long time. Yes, Jimmy, I am experienced... I have a great deal of experience with a variety of entheogens but I haven't bought that ticket for the bullet train through hyperspace yet and I'm having some deep and troubling thoughts about it... Am I a self-hating psychonaut now? I've not spent years in the jungle on a strict dieta, or spent 40 days in the wilderness, meditated in the caves or been vetted by fellow lodge members or rose through the ranks of a priest class so who am I to pull the very essence of these traditions into a solution and evap?

I originally intended to write up a formal 'Introduction Essay' in which I was going to... well brag about my experiences and my collection of plants. I was going to go into my research on Christianity's occulted use of entheogens, and talk about the pineal gland serving as a sensory organ in birds and reptiles to navigate electromagnetic fields and how this might imply that consciousness itself is literally and chemically a psychedelic experience, but frankly we've all probably read the same stuff, watched the same McKenna lectures and still came to our different conclusions about it. There's a reason the experience is in ineffable, a mystery which will remain as such until the last breath we draw unites us all in the answer, so screw it... I'm far more interested in understanding the angst and guilt I feel when I look at teks and crystals and would love to have you guys' thoughts on it. I hope it will suffice for an essay, as an introduction to me is a process rather than prose or priory and I'm no salesman anyway.

That ’s a good introduction.

Feeling guilty when looking at teks? Why? Extraction and purification of DMT is a matter of progress. Think about how brilliant the minds are of the persons that invented the methods of doing so. Incredibly easy, but how long did it take us to come so far? And what is wrong about it? Nothing in my opinion.

Extracting coca or DMT or whatever from plants has to be seen apart from abuse. It always comes down to the person using it, responsible or like an idiot. And when done with respect everyone ‘earns’ a hyperspace journey. We do it all our own way.

You make some salient points, twitchy. I can't say that I completely agree with you but I can't say I totally disagree with you either. At the risk of responding before fully digesting your post and formulating a fleshed-out response, I'd like to make a couple of points, the first couple of things that occurred to me.

Firstly I don't believe that humanism and spirituality are mutually exclusive. Materialism, on the other hand, does seem to be inherently at odds with a spiritually based worldview. The two may sometimes coexist in the same person, but I believe there would be some tension or hypocrisy or at least compartmentalization going on. Humanism, however, could be interpreted as a strong faith in the human spirit, in humanity's drive to overcome obstacles through ingenuity, intellect, inventiveness. Chemistry (and the other sciences) could be seen as a tool used in furtherance of this drive. For instance human technology has gotten us into the climate crisis, but hopefully it can help us to get out of it too. I think it all depends on intentions.

The second point that jumps to mind involves the tension between native, indigenous worldviews/cultures on the one hand and the European/"western" one(s) on the other. For much of modern history Eurocentrism has been a huge problem. Peoples from other cultures were often viewed by "westerners" as primitive, think tribal hunter-gatherers, or fallen and degenerate, think ancient cultures like the Chinese, Indian, Persian, etc. And so Europeans for centuries saw others as either childlike or past their prime. This was a great mistake and often based on frankly despicable racist views. We finally seem to be getting over this blinkered view of humanity and seeing the gifts and treasures that ALL of humanity has to offer (most or many people seem to be getting beyond this blinkered view anyway). I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater though. Rejecting a Eurocentric worldview does not mean we need to reject such endeavors as scientists extracting cocaine from coca, or opiates from opium (is opium really an entheogen? I always considered it more of a narcotic, I mean, nice dreams, sure, but no real insights). I think both drinking ayahuasca, whether in a traditional tribal setting or a syncretic hybrid church, AND smoking/vaping extracted dmt have their place. In either case intentions could be good or bad. To me the low tech tea method is more appealing, but I don't think extracting the alkaloids and smoking the results is inherently bad or wrong, far from it. Remember, opiates or cocaine can be abused or used responsibly: if you ever have eye surgery and they use cocaine as a local anaesthetic, you will be grateful I'm sure. For those who are in severe pain, from trauma, surgery, etc, opiates are a godsend.

The only time I feel guilty really is if I ever suspect that I'm using a powerful entheogen like dmt or mescaline simply to "catch a buzz" as if I were drinking a few beers. If it's done, however, with a sense of exploration, wonder, and, as strtman said, respect, well then I see it as a positive. If someone uses a tek to refine their chems, I think that they can also be doing this with respect in the spirit of exploration. Technology is not inherently evil, I guess I'm saying. It's a tool. The intentions are what matter. It should be viewed as part of the humanistic quest to explore, overcome and understand. Me, I'll stick to my tea. But if a friend wants me to help in an extraction tek and vape the results, I would gladly oblige, hopefully with respect and awe both for the wonders of nature and for human ingenuity.

I don't think you can ever realy reject materialism, from a spiritual point of view. The counsciousness that we are is shaped and sculpted by the material world it inhabits.
It isn't very relevant whether you believe we are an immaterial soul trapped in a body, or whether we are just a biological computer that generates counsciousness and feelings.
In both cases it is it is the structure of matter that is shaping the content of what we experience.

In this world, there simply cannot be any spirituality without materialism.
So we have to embrace the material world instead of rejecting it.
Any rejection of the material world and materialism, is only an attempt to escape the suffering that unavoidibly comes with it.
And by attempting to escape it, you are only confirming that it realy matters a lot to you, that it is shaping and defining you, and that in fact it is everything to you instead of nothing.

Spirituality has to do with meaning. And the meanings we know, derive from matter in some way. The wrong kind of materialism is simply the negation of these meanings. Because the same is true, argueing from the other side. You cannot have materialism without some kind of metaphysical framework either. Because you cannot have materialism without meaning. It would not be meaningless, it would not even exist at all.
After all, the only thing we realy know for sure is the existence of counsciousness.

But we only know the counsciousness we have, through it's content.

So here we are. It's a gordian knot, spirituality and materialism.

Its all romanticized. See through appearences. Just a psychological script adopted based on an "ideal" life story a person created--hence is a product of thought. Thought is always limited. Hence why some monks are limited people, encapable because of their conditioning of, for example, gracefully navigating a sexual and romantic relationship, enjoying the internet, or excelling at a musical instrument.

Putting on crazy clothes, a yellow robe, or cloking oneself in an air of mystery is an easy way to distinguish oneself from the rest--which is violent, because one is separating oneself from the whole of mankind through petty differences in religion, culture, etc--all founded on thought.

Hyperspace is bound to nothing, will take away all these concerns and comparisons through understanding. Is a space free of conditioned thoughts--thoughts in relation to something, as hyperspace is hollistic, deals with the whole of things.

The whole of things is the fact that in your father's eyes you are a prince. You can do no wrong. You are blameless. Are eternal. Are free. Are good enough. In the same way that a loving person will see a good doggie in any dog, without concern for any atributes particularly specific to the dog. For the human brain is but one brain. You know one human brain, you know them all.

Good food for thought! Well said!

There was a quote in one of the Jurassic Park movies by Jeff Goldblum's character, something to the effect of "What you call discovery, I call the rape of the natural world." It's a little harshly worded for my purposes, but conveys the point I think.

This whole conversation reminds me of a Rod McKuen poem/song,

"Before the Monkeys Came"

We'll go out into the noon,
To find what love there is to find,
An angel on the bedpost,
Or a demon in the mind.
And we'll be happy as we were,
Before the monkeys came
And put the flowers in the pots,
And gave love sinful names.
When apple trees were apple trees,
And not the curse of man.
And all the mountains piled high
were only heaps of sand.
There were no yellow roses then
Roses all were red.
And lovers slept on grassy banks
And never knew a bed.
We'll go out into the noon,
And try to be the same
The way we were a while ago
Before the monkeys came.
When every street was Eden street,
and man our only name.
That was oh so long ago,
before the monkeys came.
We'll go out into the noon
To find what love there is to find.
An angel on the bedpost,
Or a demon in the mind.
And we'll be happy as we were
Before the monkeys came.
And put the flowers in the pots
and gave love sinful names.
That was oh so long ago
Before the monkeys came.

Hell of a post. Stick around. I’m limited on time at the moment but I’d definitely like to talk cultivation of plants, uses, history.

A great deal of my lineage is Cherokee, Eastern band. I don't know if, or to what extent, that has skewed my thinking towards more of a disdain for western ideology or if my own naturalist/herbalist views are seemingly at odds with the chemistry but there is definitely some internal conflict at work in my thought and perceptions. I definitely appreciate your comment on intention though, and if there is absolution to be had in purification of these compounds it almost certainly starts with intention.

Gordian Knot is a great way to look at the internal conflict here, implying the solution to be actionable really. I wonder what you think about this 'Holographic Universe/Simulation Hypothesis? If I had never experienced psychedelics I would have rejected it honestly, but there's something that seems viable in it to me, at least in this context.

Thanks for the response. I had the privilege of being exposed to Buddhism at a fairly early age, and one of the most profound things I discovered, besides meditation, was a tenet stating that speech is the rape of pure thought. Experience cannot be truthfully conveyed once filtered through the limitations of language, and your post brought this to mind for some reason. When we seek truths, commonality is one of the foundations I think. If a civilization records a flood myth, for example, that could be localized or purely mythological but when this is shared by many cultures it substantiates the premise. I think commonality of experience is a litmus for truth in the psychedelic experience as well and if one person sees an entity we can all too easily pass that off as a hallucination, but when it is common to many we have to give it the weight it deserves.

I've always felt that the process of initiations and the like have given rise to the class based society we have today, and while it is indeed romanticized, the implications are real enough and the enlightened few have always been quick to suppress the experience for others. We see this even in the 'primitive' cultures though, as 'shamans' of the Neolithic tribes, and I wonder if there is something inherent in raising up the 'enlightened', even at times at our own expense?

Edit: I wonder how the Milgram Experiment would have worked with robes or collars as opposed to lab coats as the perceived authority figure...

Absolutely. I'm no chemist so it may be the only expertise I can contribute here.

Hey there, I agree re: Catholicism But you certainly cannot chew bark to experience the molecule.

True enough. I think I personally would be more apt to consume a brew though, as it just seems the more natural way of going about things. I know it's not a fair comparison, but caffeine, for example, in it's pure crystalline form is absolutely lethal in surprisingly small quantities but roasted up in coffee cherry pits, then ground and macerated in hot water is wonderful. It's not the molecule really that I have this issue with, but the purification and isolation to me that seems... ah hell, what's the word... overkill? Maybe it's the instant gratification, or perhaps the lack of a culturally derived moral center... I don't know, like I said before, I'm still trying to understand my own objections and I don't want to seem 'preachy' or condescending either. It could really be as simple as my own conditioning and lack of experience. Hope that makes sense.

The desire to extract or synthesize pure chemical products isn’t synonymous with the materialistic western mindset you seem keen to condemn. It seems to me this is just another search for a deeper truth or in the this case physical mastery. How the resultant information is used will always be the responsibility of the individual.

I absolutely believe that it is, so we'll just have to disagree on that. Part of my reasoning for this is that the most profound experience I've known in over thirty years of fairly regular psychedelic pursuits was attained with simple and sober meditation. No chemical can rival this, or even compare. A materialistic mind is wholly incapable of that, and thusly condemns itself. I'd be hard pressed to believe that any deeper truths are products of solvents and glassware as nature happily provides all the requisites needed.

Edit:
Please understand though that these are entirely my own beliefs and values, and seeing you making a qualitative comparison to your own while defending a materialist mindset to me seems somehow ironic given the 'responsibility of the individual'.

The tea way is natural and earth made, which is not material. Freebase is man made, which is material. The truth which no one wants to hear, the tea way is way more intense and not as easy going as freebase dmt. In the ancient times, no one was smoking freebase dmt, any healing or religious ceremonies was all done the natural earth intended way. Myself has also done the material way but myself has healing earth songs playing while doing the process but it still is man made with man made products. No matter how we dress it up or make it, it is still not the natural intended earth way. Myself doesn't really like dmt, for me it's 5 meo all the way and the only way to get it in my area is freebase form. Would love the natural earth intended way but can't get it. Most though are still ego driven and want it now and fast, that brother comes in freebase dmt form.

Tea is materialistic because its not like it rained one night and when you awoke there was a cup of ayahuasca outside. Tea is a water extraction, while that dmt is an a/b extraction. Both have been manipulated for the will of the consumer. But I just say this to argue the point. I dont have the answer on this one. I dont know if things being materialistic in essence exists as anything more than a concept. Ive tried thinking about it but its rough territory.

All psychedelic drugs are material. They do not directly affect counsciousness. They affect the brain.

Regardless of what your religious or spiritual beliefs are, you'd have to admit that counsciousness is (or has become for that matter) rather accustomed to the place it inhabits.

Everybody who takes psychedelic drugs is a materialist. Don't ever be so naive to think that you are above any form of materialism.

You may think that the need for money is superficial. But if people need money to feed their loved ones, is it still such a superficial need? OK, it may not be money itself they're after in this case.
But the point is, you can never detach all the profound and spiritual things, from all the earthly stuff. It is not as if, when maybe one day you'll become enlightened, you won't need food or water anymore.

If we can become so mature that we can see our own material needs in perspective, and realise that we ourselves are not the only one's with needs, that is already quite an achievement.

And actually pretty hard.

5-MEO is one I've not tried. The potency seems a little intimidating and I wouldn't have any way to accurately measure a dosage if I ever came across it but I'd love to try it. The trip reports are terrifying and awe inspiring, sounds like it's one of those have to see it to believe it kinds of experiences.