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Casing methods / Recipies Options
 
Xt
Senior Member
#1 Posted : 2/2/2010 8:58:10 AM
My friends just curious as to how you folks are making casings?
Do you use a Rubbermaid box and a heat source, or a heated propagator as a FC?

Do you use just vermiculite? Or do you use Coco-coir/verm/other mixtures.
And lastly, how to you make sure your casing layer doesn't contain any contamination? Pressure cooking it?

“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
soulfood
Senior Member | Skills: DMT, Harmaloids, Bufotenine, Mescaline, Trip advice
#2 Posted : 2/2/2010 12:42:23 PM
I'm hoping to do this for the first time in a few weeks. I've got everything I need except the spores to go ahead with the PF tek. For this I've heard a pressure cooker isn't necassary and some folk do this in a regular pan. I'm going to be using a vegetable steamer.

I think if you're using rye a pressure cooker is essential from what I've read.

It seems that you get out what you put in so obviously higher nutrient mixes will give bigger fruits than the standard flour/vermiculate.

I'll be using a small non-heated propagator for fruiting the casings with plenty of perlite. The average temperature here is around 22C so I imagine things aren't going to happen as quick as they would with extra heat.

I'm also very interested in what other folk have to say on this as I know there are folk around here who know their stuff on the matter.

Mycotopia and shroomery seem to be to bulky in over advanced and opinionated information respectively. I've read a good few tek's but little information in terms of the why.

I'd also be interested if folk are adding other product to the casing to disencourage mould or whether just keeping stuff as clean as possible is the only way to go.
 
mumbles
#3 Posted : 2/2/2010 12:46:32 PM
Casing layer can be sterilised in a microwave with some water or in a PC but in general if your substrate is totally colonised and your casing materials have no nutrients then there is nothing to worry about. For grains a PC is needed, in fact you really cant be sure something is sterilised unless you pressure cook it. Short cuts will just end with infection and wasted weeks so read everything you can and do it right the first time. Also there is info at the shroomer in adding a ph buffer to the casing layer to make it less mold friendly. The shroomery is really the place to look up this info.

Oh and fruiting is initiated by fresh air exchange, light, and temperature drop. So having a heated fruiting chamber my delay pinning and fruiting.
 
obliguhl
Senior Member
#4 Posted : 2/2/2010 2:32:22 PM
My friend got some spores from spore ring europe. He took great great care with making the syringes...alcohol and flame desinfection after each innoculation. Out of 9 quarter pints, only one got green fungus (he did use a pressure cooker). He didn't read anything about casings before making the cakes, so he birthed them right into a shotgun terrarium with perlite. Now he knows, that going the extra mileage seems to be worth it and brf cakes can be used to spawn to substrate.

The cakes looked fine for 2 weeks but no pins! He found out that his perlite was bone dry. DON'T RINSE IT TOO WELL!! I NEEDS TO BE PRETTY WET! He poured some water over it and after a couple of weeks of misting and fanning tiny mushrooms appeared..maybe they're still pins, technically, but they're getting bigger everyday even though they grow pretty slow.

Unfortunatly, 2 cakes did not survive. One got trich, the other white mold and trich.
Thank hyperspace entity it wasn't a casing! That's seems to be the problem with casings...the loss is very big after contamination.

Good luck!!
 
arimane
#5 Posted : 2/3/2010 10:24:41 AM
xtechre wrote:


Do you use just vermiculite? Or do you use Coco-coir/verm/other mixtures.
And lastly, how to you make sure your casing layer doesn't contain any contamination? Pressure cooking it?


I do a 50\50 vermiculite-coco coir, and add calcium carbonate to raise the pH (since shrooms like 7.6, app.)
I put it in jars, closed well, and sterilize everything in 90 minutes pressure cook.
Then you put to colonise again, in the hot dark. When like half of the layer is white, then you can put it to fruit.
Has always worked. You can see it has no contamination from color, smell, and other signs. Since is white and without smell, than it's ok.
Bad, bad english
 
psilyguy
#6 Posted : 2/3/2010 3:49:24 PM
There is a lot of info. at shroomtalk, and it's a much friendlier environment than the shroomery! I almost compare it to the atmosphere here!
Straight verm can be used as a casing. Jiffy mix or pro mix (with no compost added) can also be used. Just sift it first, and use the fine stuff. It's already been ph balanced to neutral, so you don't need to add buffers. I'm experimenting with 50:50 pro mix and verm right now.

Have fun and good luck!
 
Xt
Senior Member
#7 Posted : 2/3/2010 6:09:48 PM
My friend says thanks for this info. She just started looking at Pressure cookers and was not impressed with the price!
Which PC's are you guys using?

“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
psilyguy
#8 Posted : 2/3/2010 8:54:29 PM
If you wish to take this hobby seriously, and have some success, you will need a pressure cooker. I use a Jazi (which is a cheap one), and have had no problems. I have heard good and bad things about the presto's. My next one will definitely be an all american. They are pricey, but bulletproof. They don't even have a seal to dry out, degrade and fail. They last a lifetime.
 
benzyme
Moderator | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertExtreme Chemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertChemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertSenior Member | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expert
#9 Posted : 2/4/2010 1:45:56 AM
6qt. is sufficient to do a few quart jars, for bulk. that's pretty reasonable, and Prestos start at around 40 or 50 ducks for stainless steel.


60:40 verm:coir
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Astralking
#10 Posted : 2/4/2010 2:05:36 AM
If you want an exact answer rogerabbit (love him or hate him) suggests:

10 parts ph balanced peat moss
10 parts vermiculite
1 part calcium carbonate (or 1/4 part hydrated lime)
1 part gypsum

Gypsum really makes the difference! great stuff.
No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power. ~P.J. O'Rourke
 
antrocles
Senior Member
#11 Posted : 2/4/2010 3:45:45 AM
WOW....whole new world for me here....i love mushrooms and work with them regularly but have yet to undertake growing my own. i just ordered a "grow kit" with "golden teacher" spores about a week ago. i've got my fingers crossed that all goes well...but the more i read about this new branch of creating magic, the more overwhelmed i get. it just seems SO EASY to fuggit all up!!

i will be spending more and more time in this room trying to learn the ropes...

thank god for you guys!

LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!
"Rise above the illusion of time and you will have tomorrow's
wisdom today."
 
psilyguy
#12 Posted : 2/4/2010 8:11:20 AM
antrocles wrote:
WOW....whole new world for me here....i love mushrooms and work with them regularly but have yet to undertake growing my own. i just ordered a "grow kit" with "golden teacher" spores about a week ago. i've got my fingers crossed that all goes well...but the more i read about this new branch of creating magic, the more overwhelmed i get. it just seems SO EASY to fuggit all up!!

i will be spending more and more time in this room trying to learn the ropes...

thank god for you guys!

LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!


The best advice I can give is a) get a PC, and b) do as much research as you can before you start, it will save a lot of headaches down the road. and c) pf tech is the best way to go for beginners. Once you get the hang of that, then you can try moving on to bulk methods. Good luck!

Here are a couple of my GT rye jars, that just got spawned to bulk sub. today:


and one of my awesome LC's:



I highly recommend the shroomtalk site for info.
 
arimane
#13 Posted : 2/6/2010 12:31:56 PM
xtechre wrote:
My friend says thanks for this info. She just started looking at Pressure cookers and was not impressed with the price!
Which PC's are you guys using?

I use an Aeternum of 7.5 lt, and it's not bad at all.
Bad, bad english
 
Aoutiv
#14 Posted : 2/6/2010 9:12:49 PM
Astralking wrote:

10 parts ph balanced peat moss
10 parts vermiculite
1 part calcium carbonate (or 1/4 part hydrated lime)
1 part gypsum


^ What I use. DO NOT STERILIZE YOUR CASING (do not pressure cook it). Pasteurize it. You can pasteurize in bags or in microwave, but this has never pleased me.

What I do (taken almost exactly from RR's Lets Grow Mushrooms dvd):

Take out my 21qt pressure cooker.
Take 7 quart jars (or however much casing you need).
Fill jars with casing (3/4ths full).
Cover with lids or foil tops (one has to be just foil and no lid).
Put them in pressure cooker.
Add water up the the 3/4ths mark on the jars (as much water as you can without some getting into the jars).
Stick a meat thermometer in the middle jar (the one with the foil lid, so the thermometer is taking temp from inside).
Boil water until inside temp of the middle jar has reached 140 F.
Turn off and stove.
It should climb to 170 and stay there for 40 minutes to an hour.
Let them cool for HOURS.
Add.

This has worked for me EVERY time.
“I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”
-Watts-

"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies — all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Huxley-
 
psilyguy
#15 Posted : 2/6/2010 11:30:50 PM
Casing has no nutrients to destroy. You can sterilize it, you can pressure cook it. They say not to sterilize, but instead pasturize your substrate, but even that has been proven to be a myth with cubes. Many people sterilize their substrate, poo and all, in a pressure cooker (myself included), and have excellent results, and far less contam. rates.
 
Aoutiv
#16 Posted : 2/7/2010 10:42:09 PM
Ya, i know many have sterilized their sub and it still worked (which still kind of shocks me), but there is no DOUBT there are beneficial microbial life in hpoo (can read about it here) and other subs and sterilizing kills those beneficial bacteria. It is a MYTH that there are ZERO beneficial bacterias in casing. It is just unfounded.

For me, there is simply no reason to sterilize before I pasteurize my sub or casing. It is easier and more time manageable for me (i'm excluding microwave sterilization, I can't believe people do this).

I'm not trying to argue, but I have heard too many times that casing contains zero beneficial microbial life and that it should be sterilized. Even if there actually was none, it still would be better to pasteurize.

EDIT: And on the contam factor, I rarely get contams with pasteurizing all of my stuff. Only trich a few times and that was on my RYE jars, not even added sub or casing.

I don't know, maybe my house is just cleaner than some. I am cautious but still pretty lazy when it comes to ensuring a sterile environment..
“I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”
-Watts-

"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies — all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Huxley-
 
Xt
Senior Member
#17 Posted : 2/12/2010 6:20:24 PM
Thank you all so much for visiting this thread. My friend would rather not join another forum so she asked me to ask you here.
To the meat of the post...

*So what temps are used for colonizing jars, and what temps are used to start pinning/fruiting?
**What PH should the fruiting chamber be?
***Can you mist the casings once they have been put into the Fruiting chamber?

****How deep do you folks make your substrate and how deep do you make your casing layer?
My friend has some trays that are 2 inches deep.



“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
Aoutiv
#18 Posted : 2/13/2010 7:01:28 PM
xtechre wrote:
Thank you all so much for visiting this thread. My friend would rather not join another forum so she asked me to ask you here.
To the meat of the post...

*So what temps are used for colonizing jars, and what temps are used to start pinning/fruiting?
**What PH should the fruiting chamber be?
***Can you mist the casings once they have been put into the Fruiting chamber?

****How deep do you folks make your substrate and how deep do you make your casing layer?
My friend has some trays that are 2 inches deep.




Id suggest you pick up Stamets' The Mushroom Cultivator. There are pdfs online and all of your questions will be answered there (although SOME stuff is outdated, GGMM is also a good read).

*Colonization should be around 80-82 F. The inside of the jars are usually 4-6 hotter than the outside temp and colonization temps should not be above 86.
**PH in fruiting chamber? The FC shouldnt have a PH. The casing should start with a ph of 8 or so as it will go down over time. A neutral ph is good.
***You should mist the casing so it is shiny, but do not oversaturate it.
****Atleast 3 inches (although i'm testing sub depths right now) and no more than 5-6 inches.
“I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”
-Watts-

"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies — all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Huxley-
 
Xt
Senior Member
#19 Posted : 2/14/2010 1:09:27 AM
*RH (relative humidity), my bad.

“Right here and now, one quanta away, there is raging a universe of active intelligence that is transhuman, hyperdimensional, and extremely alien... What is driving religious feeling today is a wish for contact with this other universe.”
― Terence McKenna
 
SnozzleBerry
Moderator | Skills: Growing (plants/mushrooms), Research, Extraction troubleshooting, Harmalas, Revolution (theory/practice)
#20 Posted : 2/14/2010 3:16:53 AM
For pressure cooker, I would recommend Presto, without a doubt...I have the old school pressure canner, it's massive and I love it.

Here's an easy and effective liquid culture tek and it's got the best LC Lid design I've ever come across embedded in it as well: Cyber's Liquid Culture Tek

Here's a great grain tek: Doc's Wild Birdseed Tek

To all those who say grain is too tough for beginners, I say you're wrong. I've never done anything but grain and think that as easy as the PF tek is, if you're gonna undertake any cultivation/extraction, you may as well do the full method (that's just me though, I guess it's the same reason i do A/B and not STB spice extractions).

Here's the casing method I use, while I don't particularly hate RR, i think he comes across as a little pretentious at times (but then again, shroomery is full of those types and that's why I only lurk there) and I prefer Roadkill's style/advice. Plus he's buddies with Ralphster, another great guy so yea....

Casing: Roadkill's 60/40 Vermiculite and Coco Coir Casing Tek

Here's some excerpts from Stamet's mushroom cultivation book on rh and the like:
Stamets wrote:

Basic Pinning Strategy
Mushrooms fruit indoors in response to much the same conditions that trigger fruiting in the wild. Several environmental factors, working in combination, provide an ideal environment in which mushrooms flourish. Most, if not all cultivated mushrooms fruit at lower temperatures than the optimum for the growth of mycelium. Usually, a drop in temperature is accompanied by rain or an increase in humidity. Water is essential for the absorption of nutrients by the mycelium. And vaporous water creates the humid microclimate that is so critical for the developing primordia. Primordia have a low tolerance to CO2 and need ample fresh air. And while the mycelium has no requirement for light, many species need light to initiate pinheads and to mature into healthy mushrooms. Mushrooms form only when there is a coincidence of all these factors. Cultivators create an artificial environment that prolongs these optimum conditions so that mushrooms are given the best possible environment in which to grow.
Primordia formation strategies are well defined for species now under cultivation. These procedures are similar in their approach and differ only in certain environmental requirements. Given that the substrate has sufficient nutrients, the interaction of water, humidity, temperature, fresh air, CO2 and light all play determining roles in the fructification process. (In some cases, specific microorganisms must be present before fruiting can occur). The modification of any one of these factors beyond the fruiting requirements can inhibit or stop the process. Hence, the cultivator must have precise control over conditions within the growing room if this critical phase is to be carried out successfully.


PRIMORDIA FORMATION PROCEDURES
Agaricus brunnescens culture illustrates the interplay of environmental factors in pinhead initiation. It serves as a useful model for setting primordia in many species, especially those using a casing layer. In each of the following stages, the main considerations are highlighted and then discussed in detail. Although Agaricus does not require light, and since most cultivated mushrooms do, this requirement has been listed as the last parameter.


Stage I: Preparation
Following its application, the casing is conditioned to allow even mycelial growth into it. Once mycelial growth is well established, the casing layer microclimate and the growing room are carefully managed to meet the following requirements.

1. The casing layer is at optimum moisture capacity.
2. The casing layer surface is rough and porous.
3. The relative humidity of the growing room's air is 95%.
4. The substrate is incubated in total darkness.


During the casing colonization period, the casing layer is being conditioned for pinhead initiation. Gradually, the moisture content is brought up to the optimum and a microclimate with high relative humidity is carefully maintained. Water in the casing moves by capillary action to the surface where it is drawn into the air by evaporation. This constant movement slowly depletes the casing of the moisture needed to protect pinhead development. Therefore, in conjunction with an optimum casing moisture level, the relative humidity of the room must be held at 95%. Lower humidities must be accompanied by light but regular waterings. The higher the humidity (rH), the less water will be lost to evaporation.
Given optimum moisture conditions in and directly above the casing layer, the next step is to prepare the casing surface. Whether by initial application or by ruffling at a later time, the casing surface should be rough and open - with minute mountains and valleys. A rough open casing has more surface area where pinheads can form, provides a humid environment conducive to that formation and allows the diffusion of metabolic gases.


Stage II: Environmental Transition?The Prelude to Setting Primordia
Pinhead initiation techniques should begin when the mycelium reaches the valleys of the casing surface. Once the mycelium is clearly established in the valleys, the cultivator can begin the first steps leading to the setting of pinheads. Within this one to two day period, the


1. Substrate and air temperatures are lowered to the fruiting range.
2. The humidity is maintained at the 95% level.
3. The carbon dioxide content of the room is reduced by the introduction of fresh air.
4. The room is lighted on a 12 hour on/off cycle.

Mycelium breaking through the casing surface early should be lightly sprinkled with moist casing. Uneven growth through the casing layer is usually an indication of a casing with irregular depths. By "patching" shallow areas, an even mycelial spread is assured. Note that the more even the distribution of the mycelium in the valleys of the casing's surface, the more even the pin-set and the greater the first and second flushes.
The exact time for initiation varies with the strain and according to the experience of the individual grower. Some strains continue to grow vegetatively for a period after the initial temperature shock whereas others stop immediately. For this reason, some cultivators initiate when 20% of the valleys show mycelial growth while others wait until 90% are run through with mycelium. Normally within 12-48 hours from the time the mycelium is first visible in the valleys, the initiation sequence is started.
The first step in the pinhead initiation process is to lower the substrate and air temperature from the mycelial growth optimum to the fruiting range. This temperature "shock" is accomplished by ventilation with a large volume of cool fresh air, thereby lowering the room's temperature to a point 5-20? below the optimum for spawn running. (For Agaricus brunnescens, this would mean dropping air temperature from 70 ?F. to 64 ?F.). Whatever the air temperature may be, the bed temperature is normally several degrees warmer. The length of time needed to affect this change is determined by the total volume of substrate and the temperature of the air being introduced. Within 48 hours, the substrate temperature should fall to fruiting temperatures, effectively slowing vegetative growth. This change signals to the mycelium that it is time to fruit.
Fresh air also removes high concentrations of carbon dioxide and other metabolic gases from the room. Since Agaricus brunnescens does not pin properly at CO2 concentrations above 2000 ppm, lowering the carbon dioxide content of the room's air to under 2000 ppm is critical. The inhibitory effect of carbon dioxide on mushroom formation gives Agaricus growers a high degree of control over the pinning process. Not until carbon dioxide is removed will pinheads form. If carbon dioxide levels remain high, the mycelium will totally cover the casing surface, a condition called overlay.
The mycelial mat formed by overlay makes the casing impervious to water and produces few pinheads. Overlay also occurs if the casing surface is too dry, the humidity (rH) is too low or the air temperature remains too high. Overlay can be counteracted by patching, but the cause must be diagnosed and carefully corrected if the culture is to be revived. Few flushes will be as great from a casing with overlay as from a casing properly managed.


Stage III: Primordia Formation (Knotting)
Once substrate temperatures have been lowered and CO2 levels have been reduced, primordia will begin to form. Maintain:


1. A constant fresh air supply to remove metabolic gases, and CO2 at levels less than 1000 ppm.
2. A constant temperature in the growing room that is within the fruiting range.
3. A relative humidity of 95%.
4. A 12 hour on/off light cycle.


The combination of temperature drop, high humidity and reduction of metabolic gases by a constant supply of fresh air now provides an environment conducive to pinhead formation. These parameters should be held constant until the pins are set. Any abrupt changes in temperature or humidity will be harmful to primordial growth. Pinhead initials form in the humid valleys of the casing layer and are visible as small knots of mycelium. This is the earliest stage of fruiting. Within five days these knots enlarge into small mounds or buttons that soon differentiate into mushrooms.
Due to slowed mycelial growth in the cooled substrate, carbon dioxide evolution is greatly reduced. Consequently, the fresh air supply can be moderated to the minimum level necessary to maintain 1000 ppm of carbon dioxide. At this time, oversupply of fresh air can lead to high evaporation rates and excessive drying. The humidity should never be allowed to fall below 90%. If dry air becomes a problem, a light misting of the casing surface, two to five times daily, should keep the microclimate moist. In fact, some growers knock down the mycelium with a forceful watering on the first day of initiation. Others mist daily as a standard practice. However, once pinning has begun, any forceful watering will kill a number of developing pins, and damage others. Given sufficient casing moisture and a high humidity, these watering practices become unnecessary.

Stage IV: Pinhead Development
After the pinheads have grown to pea size (3-5 mm.), their further development is primarily dependent on air temperature and relative humidity. To insure that they mature into healthy mushrooms, the

1. Air temperature is held constant within the fruiting range.
2. Relative humidity is lowered to 85-92%.<
3. A constant fresh air supply with CO2 below 2000 ppm
4. A 12 hour on/off light cycle

The humidity is lowered to 85-92%, thereby increasing the evaporation rate, an essential requirement for pinhead maturation. If humidity remains too high, pinhead development will be retarded. The easiest way to reduce humidity is to raise the air temperature by 1 -2 ?F. or to increase air movement within the room. Under no circumstances should pockets of stagnant air be allowed to form. Evaporation is negligible in stagnant air pockets which are also excellent breeding grounds for mushroom pathogens.
At this time, a slightly higher level of carbon dioxide is desirable (in the 1500-2000 ppm range) and fresh air can be cut back accordingly. Given proper CO2 levels, and sufficient evaporation, the pins continue to develop. The exact rate of growth depends on the air temperature in the room. Work done by Lambert (193Cool has shown that a pinhead of Agaricus brunnescens with a diameter of 2 millimeters fully develops into a mature mushroom in twenty-two days at 50 ?F., in ten days at 60 ?F. and in six days at 70 ?F. Although mushrooms develop more quickly at 70 ?F., overall yields diminish. Optimum temperature for cropping in Agaricus brunnescens is 62-64?F.



Also, I roll with a 2-4 inch substrate layer and 2-3 inch casing layer...

peace
SB
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