Judging by the fact that dreams, NDEs, psychosis, meditative and trance-like states are quite different in comparison to DMT experiences I find it hard to believe that DMT is produced in our body endogenously.
To me DMT seems like just a potent psychedelic, worth to note it also feels the most "right" one too, probably because it is structurally the most similar to natural neurotransmitters, more so than psilocin even (I believe..).
Some have speculated that those states are different because it is a mixture of different neurotransmitters firing up and the experience is caused by this synergy rather than by endogenous DMT by itself.
Some also said body releases only small amounts of DMT at the time, which could explain why dreams for example are so different than smoked DMT experiences and ayahuasca.
One thing that makes me really skeptical about endogenous DMT happening with humans is the fact that it was never proved that the pineal gland produces it, or anything else for that matter. If it existed it would be found to be produced somewhere IMO.
I personally don't believe we produce endogenous DMT, even though it would be epic that dreams, NDEs, psychosis, meditative states and DMT trips were the same thing but the reality is they are very different IME.
Emotional attachments aside from this chemical, and actual beneficial facts aside, what do you guys think? Could endogenous DMT production in humans be a myth?
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Possibly. I have seen very DMT-like visuals through entering the Dreamtime trance state by playing the didgeridoo. I think endogenous DMT, if present, is only available in minute quantities. Perhaps on the microgram scale. "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Nope. I think its definitely not a myth. I think endogenous DMT being responsible for dreams, NDE, yadayada everything else is speculation and may or may not be true. But the fact that DMT is in our bodies, is well documented. There's been a lot of work done on what tissues it is and isn't in, the enzyme (INMT) which aids its DMTs biosynthesis has been studied a lot as well. The fact that it exists as an endogenous trace amine isn't really disputed. There's still a lot of interest in characterizing its physiological function, as a number of groups have done awesome work on its potential in immunomodulation, and tissue regeneration (to be brief). I can supply with ample scientific articles if needed, but I am lazy now. Wikipedia actually has a pretty well-cited documentation of DMTs characterization in the body. https://en.wikipedia.org...tryptamine#Biosynthesis
Living to Give
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As has been already pointed out, DMT has been found to be endogenous (produced within). What we don't know is whether or not the pineal gland produces it for sure (this is not as trivial to prove as you might think, it's actually quite difficult to study)... And whether or not DMT is involved in dreams, NDEs, and so on. But considering that the pineal gland has the necessary enzymes for this trivial biochemical synthesis, and DMT has been found in the pineal of other mammals, and techniques that stimulate this glands activity (i.e. dark rooming) can produce visionary experiences, it definitely doesn't seem unlikely to me, though the jury is still out until more studies are done. I've had many experiences that were similar in ways to DMT without taking anything- awake or in dreams- but it's usually more like a complex mix of processes and neurotransmitters. The interesting thing is that this can be learned, to some extent. I don't see a good reason why it would be the only thing involved. These 'sober' psychedelic experiences likely involve a wider range of endogenous beta carbolines (there are many, such as pinoline) and tryptamines (5meo, bufo, nmt, dmt, etc), and other complex neural processes, imo.
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
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there exist several research articles involving numerous assays elucidating presence in human plasma, (Thompson et. al, 1999, Presti et al., 2004, etc.). and as the authors in the cited papers have pointed out, the concentrations are well below those of common active doses. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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Many consider DMT to be incredibly similar to near death experience, certain types of dream states, after-death consciousness, genuine spiritual/religious phenomena, and certain types of abduction phenomena, so much so that many prominent researchers speculate that endogenous DMT May actually facilitate these experiences when they occur naturally*, though keep in mind these are RARE experiences which likely require rare physiological circumstances to occur, I doubt you could harness endogenous DMT in any voluntary or intentional manner... * Quote:This methodology must now be applied to determine the potential role of these compounds in non-drug induced altered states of consciousness with psychedelic features, such as dreams, psychosis, meditation, religious experience, childbirth, and near-death states and we are very eager to do so. This effort has been made even more important following the recent discoveries of Cozzi et al. (5) that the enzyme responsible for synthesis of the endogenous hallucinogens is present in pineal gland, brain, spinal cord and retinal tissues of primates and appears to be an inducible enzyme, an enzyme that responds to specific signals. Therefore, clearly establishing the role of endogenous tryptamine hallucinogens in various states of consciousness will provide tremendous insight into their origin, and may lead to more reliable means of working with and studying their utility. https://www.cottonwoodresearch.org/dmt-update/
Misc. Research article: Quote:Abstract The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia. This hypothesis developed from comparisons of the blood and urine of schizophrenic and control subjects. However, much of this research proved inconclusive and conventional thinking has since held that trace levels of DMT, and other endogenous psychoactive tryptamines, are insignificant metabolic byproducts. The recent discovery of a G-protein-coupled, human trace amine receptor has triggered a reappraisal of the role of compounds present in limited concentrations in biological systems. Interestingly enough, DMT and other psychoactive tryptamine hallucinogens elicit a robust response at the trace amine receptor. While it is currently accepted that serotonin 5-HT(2A) receptors play a pivotal role in the activity of hallucinogenic/psychedelic compounds, we propose that the effects induced by exogenous DMT administration, especially at low doses, are due in part to activity at the trace amine receptor. Furthermore, we suggest that endogenous DMT interacts with the TA receptor to produce a calm and relaxed mental state, which may suppress, rather than promote, symptoms of psychosis. This hypothesis may help explain the inconsistency in the early analysis of endogenous DMT in humans. Finally, we propose that amphetamine action at the TA receptor may contribute to the calming effects of amphetamine and related drugs, especially at low doses. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15780487
As mentioned in the article above, Initially endogenous dimethyltryptamine was investigated in connection with psychosis: Quote:SITARAM BR; MCLEOD WR Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies. Biol Psychiatry. 1990 Nov 15; 28(10): 841-8 Although the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, and 5-hydroxy-N,N- dimethyltryptamine have been unequivocally identified in human body fluids, evidence relating their concentration to the presence of psychotic illness in humans remains controversial. A series of studies on the metabolism of the compounds in the rat have highlighted the rapidity and with which these are metabolized and renally excreted. The implications of our observation for the interpretation of past clinical studies and the design of future ones is discussed http://deoxy.org/annex/daytripr.htm#8 Quote:CARPENTER, WILLIAM T; FINK, EDWARD B; NARASIMHACHARI, NEDATHUR; HIMWICH, HAROLD
A test of the transmethylation hypothesis in acute schizophrenic patients.
American Journal of Psychiatry; 1975 Oct Vol 132(10) 1067-1071
An investigation of 3 aspects of the transmethylation hypothesis found that 26 acutely schizophrenic patients were no more likely to have bufotenine or N,N-dimethyltryptamine present in urine or elevated serum indolethylamine N-methyltransferase activity than 10 normal controls. It is concluded that these are naturally occurring substances. Quote:WYATT, R J,; ET AL Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine concentrations in normals and psychiatric patients. Psychopharmacologia; 1973 Vol. 31(3) 265-270 Conducted a g as chromatographic-mass spectrometric determination of the plasma N,N-dimethyltryptamine concentration from 8 male and 3 female normals and 19 male and 10 female psychiatric patients (psychotically depressed, chronic and acute schizophrenics). Results show that within the limit of sensitivity of assay (.5-1.8 ng/ml of plasma), there was no difference among the Ss. WYATT, RICHARD J,; ET AL The dimethyltryptamine-forming enzyme in blood platelets: A study in monozygotic twins discordant for schizophrenia. American Journal of Psychiatry; 1973 Dec Vol. 130(12) 1359-1361 Assayed samples of the nondialyzed platelets of 14 pairs of monozygotic twins discordant for schizophrenia for their ability to form enzymatically the hallucinogen dimethyltryptamine. The schizophrenic twins had higher mean levels of enzyme activity than their nonschizophrenic cotwins, whose mean level of enzyme activity was equal to that of 22 normal nontwin control Ss. This finding suggests that the higher levels of enzyme activity found in schizophrenics is produced by their environment and is not genetically determined. http://deoxy.org/annex/daytripr.htm#8
However more recent research indicates a far more complex role for endogenous DMT, and while still not fully understood, endogenous DMT does appear to be the endogenous ligand for the orphan sigmar-1 receptor: Quote:Abstract The sigma-1 receptor is widely distributed in the central nervous system and periphery. Originally mischaracterized as an opioid receptor, the sigma-1 receptor binds a vast number of synthetic compounds but does not bind opioid peptides; it is currently considered an orphan receptor. The sigma-1 receptor pharmacophore includes an alkylamine core, also found in the endogenous compound N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT acts as a hallucinogen, but its receptor target has been unclear. DMT bound to sigma-1 receptors and inhibited voltage-gated sodium ion (Na+) channels in both native cardiac myocytes and heterologous cells that express sigma-1 receptors. DMT induced hypermobility in wild-type mice but not in sigma-1 receptor knockout mice. These biochemical, physiological, and behavioral experiments indicate that DMT is an endogenous agonist for the sigma-1 receptor. ... The binding, biochemical, physiological, and behavioral studies reported here all support the hypothesis that DMT acts as a ligand for the sigma-1 receptor. On the basis of our binding results and the sigma-1 receptor pharmacophore, endogenous trace amines and their N-methyl and N,N-dimethyl derivatives are likely to serve as endogenous sigma receptor regulators. Moreover, DMT, the only known mammalian N,N-dimethylated trace amine, can activate the sigma-1 receptor to modulate Na+ channels. The recent discovery that the sigma-1 receptor functions as a molecular chaperone (30) may be relevant, because sigma-1 receptors, which are observed in the endoplasmic reticulum, associate with plasma membrane Kv 1.4 channels (22) and may serve as a molecular chaperone for ion channels. Furthermore, the behavioral effect of DMT may be due to activation or inhibition of sigma-1 receptor chaperone activity instead of, or in addition to, DMT/sigma-1 receptor modulation of ion channels. These studies thus suggest that this natural hallucinogen could exert its action by binding to sigma-1 receptors, which are abundant in the brain (1, 27). This discovery may also extend to N,N-dimethylated neurotransmitters such as the psychoactive serotonin derivative N,N-dimethylserotonin (bufotenine), which has been found at elevated concentrations in the urine of schizophrenic patients (10). The finding that DMT and sigma-1 receptors act as a ligand-receptor pair provides a long-awaited connection that will enable researchers to elucidate the biological functions of both of these molecules. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...mc/articles/PMC2947205/
Endogenous dimethyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-DMT, and 5-hydroxy-DMT have been scientifically verified to be natural products of the human body and human metabolism, they exist naturally in all humans, as well as various plants, they also exist in mammals and in fungi as well. While it was never proven that the human pineal body produces dimethyltryptamine, that in no way effects the biosynthetic pathway for DMT, all necessary enzymes exist in multiple locations of the human body. DMT is produced from tryptophan, an essential amino acid. This is the biosynthetic pathway: Tryptophan is decarboxalated (amino acid decarboxylase) giving tryptamine, this tryptamine is then methylated via indole amine methyl transerase (INMT) and S-Adenosyl methionine, which becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH) as it donates its methyl group, giving N-methyl-tryptamine, this NMT is again methylated via indole amine methyl transerase (INMT) and S-Adenosyl methionine, (which again becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH) as it donates its methyl group) going N,N-DMT. the pineal body is not essential in any part of this pathway... However, DMT still could be produced in the pineal gland, and has been found to exist in the pineal gland of live rodants: Quote:DMT in the pineal glands of live rodents. The paper will appear in the journal Biomedical Chromatography and describes experiments that took place in Dr. Jimo Borjigin’s laboratory at the University of Michigan, where samples were collected. These samples were analyzed in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop https://www.cottonwoodre...ch.org/dmt-pineal-2013/
A good deal of tryptamine chemistry occurs involving the pineal gland, serotonin is converted to melatonin and then further converted to 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline) in the pineal body. (Pinoline is near identical in structure to the harmala alkaloids found in B. Caapi and P. Harmala, so not only do you have the endogenous psychedelic tryptamines, you also have endogenous beta-carboline neurotransmitters which are near identical to the plant mono amine oxidase psychoactives used in ayahuasca brews) I've probably gone on long enough, and will stop here, even though I had quite a bit more to say. -eg
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never been a fan of the "near death experience" hypotheses. many experiences/ligands emulate the proverbial NDE..NMDA antagonists, hypoxia, etc. same with psychotomimetic (schizophrenic) hypotheses. they are obsolete; interesting to note, for historical perspectives "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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Can you not relate what is described below with the deep Entheogenic experiance? With particular emphasis on DMT, high dose psilocybin, and ayahuasca? For me fanaa perfectly describes the DMT state: Quote:Fanaa (Arabic: فناء fanāʾ ) is the Sufi term for "passing away" or "annihilation" (of the self).[1] Fana means "to die before one dies", a concept highlighted by famous notable Muslim saints such as Rumi and later by Sultan Bahoo. Fana represents a breaking down of the individual ego and a recognition of the fundamental unity of God, creation, and the individual self. Persons having entered this enlightened state obtain awareness of the intrinsic unity (Tawhid) between Allah and all that exists, including the individual's mind. It is coupled conceptually with baqaa, subsistence, which is the state of pure consciousness of and abidance in God. As does the bardo thodol, I live out something near identical to what's described in the bardo thodol (some Egyptian traditions also come close) however the bardo thodol is describing death. (My first DMT flash I was certain I had reached the state after death but before reincarnation, I knew exactly where I was and what was happening, there was no question, I also felt I had been there many times before...and while it's impossible to convince others (I generally won't even try) the experiance convinced myself) The bardo thodol again describes states identical to the DMT flash, specially when speaking of the white light and the clear primordial light: Quote:he Chikhai Bardo is the after death state described in the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead) wherein the consciousness of the dead person fully enters into the light of the dharmakaya or "truth body." (explained in the first part of this series). In this state, the person temporarily experiences for the first time the state of awareness without a second, that is to say, a state of pure consciousness. This is the state of non-duality. The first experience here is the sight of the Primordial Clear Light or the "Clear Light of Reality." This is the pure mind of the Buddha, Christ, and all the perfected saints and mystics. It is generally accepted among various spiritual traditions that the total amount of time it takes to transition between two consecutive earthly incarnations is 49 days. During this period, the first 3 to 4 days are spent in the Chikhai Bardo wherein the Awareness-body is formed. The formation of the awareness-body is a significant point in this process since it will carry one’s consciousness when it travels the path through the afterlife. http://www.chinabuddhism..._Bardo:_The_Primordial_(Clear_Light)_and_the_Awareness-Body Quote:The primordial clear light serves a highly important role in the symbolism of the Bardo Thodol. In Tibetan Buddhism, it is considered as the state of pure wisdom and the peak of experience. In Zen Buddhism, the experience of the primordial clear light is regarded as the highest state of meditative experience known as Satori. Others call it "the radiance from the seed of emptiness” or “the primordial wisdom of great bliss.” The experience of the primordial clear light may be two-fold depending on a person's spiritual attainment: 1. The Primary Clear Light The primary clear light is the clear untainted light that represents a highly evolved form of the spirit or a clear presence of the totality of consciousness. In the presence of the clear light “all things are like the void and cloudless sky, and the naked, spotless intellect is like unto a transparent vacuum without circumference or centre.” The primary clear light immediately experienced at the time of death is also equivalent to enlightenment — the highest level of spiritual experience for people in various mystical and spiritual schools — since it is well-known among these circles that consciousness can be transformed into wisdom by means of spiritual practice. At the time of death, the dead person is reminded by the lama or guru not to let this clear light slip away. A message is repeated many times through the ear of the dead person to abide in this state without being enthralled or mesmerized. If the person's consciousness cannot hold on to this experience because of its overwhelming power, then the secondary clear light will soon appear, which will be followed by the visionary deities. 2. The Secondary Clear Light The secondary clear light is less intense. While in this state, the person becomes concerned with his or her individuality, but cannot determine whether he or she is dead or not. The consciousness of the dead person drifts within familiar places. It even gets a glimpse of its relatives and people it had been close to as if one is having a lucid dream. The terrifying karmic apparitions have not yet begun at this point, but will soon start if one's consciousness still cannot hold on to this state. In this case, the dead person is again reminded, through the ritual, not to be distracted and to meditate upon his/her tutelary deity to help focus the mind on the clear light http://www.chinabuddhism..._Bardo:_The_Primordial_(Clear_Light)_and_the_Awareness-Body Shamanism would not be possible with out DMT or some deep Entheogenic substance. Mircea Eliade argued that Entheogenic shamanism was in a state of decay, however I see non-Entheogenic shamanism, where one must resort to ordeals, poisons, fasting, sweat lodges, being stranded in wilderness, etc...as being in a state of decay, they had to resort to these extreme and dangerous methods in absence of entheogens... Can you not see how DMT relates here as well? Quote:Shamanic abilities are generally brought on by a personal crisis, such as illness or sudden shock. Where this is not naturally forthcoming, initiations designed to produce the effects of such a state are used to bring about re-birth as a shaman. The shaman sees through everything, dies and is reborn, suffers the pangs of the world, and sees into its darkest corners. The near-death of initiation is common to shamans the world over and a metaphor for their experiences. Afterwards, they are never the same; everything has changed for them. They have known total knowledge and, to a degree according to their skills and strengths, have permanent access to it from that moment on.
( -shamanism bible; mathwes )
Quote:The shaman is part of the age-old tradition of the Perennial Philosophy – the mystical teaching of unity of all things and all being. In the realm of magic everything is interrelated; nothing exists in isolation.… This level of consciousness, like a gigantic telephone exchange, affords access to all other realms of awareness. All mystical paths are agreed that such a way of experiencing requires a suspension of normal awareness and of rational thought by means of special techniques of mind training.
DREAM TIME AND INNER SPACE, HOLGER KALWEIT, 1984 Quote:Shamans continually travel between the otherworld of dream and vision and the everyday world of waking consciousness. These two worlds are seen as comprising a single reality. This unified vision of one world with two dimensions stands in stark contrast to the increasingly prevalent view that the everyday world and the life we live is the only reality. Shamans keep open the ways between the worlds in order to maintain this unified vision, because it is the bedrock of all healing and connection with the infinite. No one and nothing is left out of this unity. -shamanism bible ; Mathews
Quote:the shaman is socially marginal, politically marginal, lives at the edge of the village, and so forth and so on, and is feared by the people, because dealings with the shaman are always dealings about life and death. But then the shaman comes forward in this critical role, as go-between, as mediator, between the cultural mind and the real world, which is this potent set of forces and planetary cycles and meteorological events and diseases and, you know, fate; and the shaman mediates. In many languages, the word for shaman means “go-between”. So the cost of this, or the price of this, for the shaman himself, or herself, is a kind of alienation from the cultural values, and a kind of understanding that it’s a game that’s kept in play. -terence mckenna I'll stop here, it's just impossible for me to nit see the relation between the psychedelic experience and the concepts that have been expressed by so many of these spiritual traditions, it's honestly not hard to see that they are in fact talking about the same thing... Again, I apologize, I understand this is a fruitless endeavor, for some these spiritual and death related connections are an obvious and intrinsic part of the Entheogenic experience, for others, a connection can never be made, which I will never be able to understand, as it seems so obvious to myself. Most researchers and entheogen enthusiasts reach the same conclusions, even the great skeptikal thinker terence McKenna understood the situation in this sense: Quote:"If one leaves aside the last three hundred years of historical experience as it unfolded in Europe and America, and examines the phenomenon of death and the doctrine of the soul in all its ramifications - Neoplatonic, Christian, dynastic-Egyptian, and so on, one finds repeatedly the idea that there is a light body, an entelechy that is somehow mixed up with the body during life and at death is involved in a crisis in which these two portions separate. One part loses its raison d'etre and falls into dissolution; metabolism stops. The other part goes we know not where. Perhaps nowhere if one believes it does not exist; but then one has the problem of trying to explain life. And, though science makes great claims and has done well at explaining simple atomic systems, the idea that science can make any statement about what life is or where it comes from is currently preposterous." Terence McKenna,
Quote:Both the psychedelic dream state and the waking psychedelic state acquire great import because they reveal to life a task: to become familiar with this dimension that is causing being, in order to be familiar with it at the moment of passing from life.
The metaphor of a vehicle--an after-death vehicle, an astral body--is used by several traditions. Shamanism and certain yogas, including Taoist yoga, claim very clearly that the purpose of life is to familiarize oneself with this after-death body so that the act of dying will not create confusion in the psyche. One will recognize what is happening. One will know what to do and one will make a clean break. Yet there does seem to be the possibility of a problem in dying. It is not the case that one is condemned to eternal life. One can muff it through ignorance.
Apparently at the moment of death there is a kind of separation, like birth--the metaphor is trivial, but perfect. There is a possibility of damage or of incorrect activity. The English poet-mystic William Blake said that as one starts into the spiral there is the possibility of falling from the golden track into eternal death. Yet it is only a crisis of a moment--a crisis of passage--and the whole purpose of shamanism and of life correctly lived is to strengthen the soul and to strengthen the ego's relationship to the soul so that this passage can be cleanly made. This is the traditional position...
What psychedelics encourage, and where I hope attention will focus once hallucinogens are culturally integrated to the point where large groups of people can plan research programs without fear of persecution, is the modeling of the after-death state. Psychedelics may do more than model this state; they may reveal the nature of it. Psychedelics will show us that the modalities of appearance and understanding can be shifted so that we can know mind within the context of the One Mind. The One Mind contains all experiences of the Other. There is no dichotomy between the Newtonian universe, deployed throughout light-years of three-dimensional space, and the interior mental universe. They are adumbrations of the same thing.
We perceive them as unresolvable dualisms because of the low quality of the code we customarily use. The language we use to discuss this problem has built-in dualisms. This is a problem of language. All codes have relative code qualities, except the Logos. The Logos is perfect and, therefore, partakes of no quality other than itself. I am here using the word Logos in the sense in which Philo Judaeus uses it--that of the Divine Reason that embraces the archetypal complex of Platonic ideas that serve as the models of creation. As long as one maps with something other than the Logos, there will be problems of code quality. The dualism built into our language makes the death of the species and the death of the individual appear to be opposed things.
-terence McKenna Quote:ND: You have said that an important part of the mystical quest is to face up to death and recognize it as a rhythm of life. Would you like to enlarge on your view on the implications of the dying process?
TM: I take seriously the notion that these psychedelic states are an anticipation of the dying process-or, as the Tibetans refer to it, the Bardo level beyond physical death. It seems likely that our physical lives are a type of launching pad for the soul. As the esoteric traditions say, life is an opportunity to prepare for death, and we should learn to recognize the signposts along the way, so that when death comes, we can make the transition smoothly. I think the psychedelics show you the transcendental nature of reality. It would be hard to die gracefully as an atheist or existentialist. Why should you? Why not rage against the dying of the light? But if in fact this is not the dying of the light but the Dawning of the Great Light, then one should certainly not rage against that. There's a tendency in the New Age to deny death. We have people pursuing physical immortality and freezing their heads until the fifth millennium, when they can be thawed out. All of this indicates a lack of balance or equilibrium. The Tao flows through the realms of life and nonlife with equal ease.
ND: Do you personally regard the death process as a journey into one's own belief system?
TM: Like the psychedelic experience, death must be poured into the vessel of language. But dying is essentially physiological. It may be that there are certain compounds in the brain that are only released when it is impossible to reverse the dying process. And yet the near-death experience has a curious affinity to the shamanic voyage and the psychedelic experience.
I believe that the best map we have of consciousness is the shamanic map. According to this viewpoint, the world has a "center," and when you go to the center-which is inside yourself-there is a vertical axis that allows you to travel up or down. There are celestial worlds, there are infernal worlds, there are paradisiacal worlds. These are the worlds that open up to us on our shamanic journeys, and I feel we have an obligation to explore these domains and pass on that inforrnation to others interested in mapping the psyche. At this time in our history, it's perhaps the most awe-inspiring journey anyone could hope to make.
From an interview with Nevill Drury from the autumn 1990, vol. 11, no. 1, issue of the Australian magazine Nature and Health, and chapter 17 of The Archaic Revival by Terence McKenna. Again, I'm not here to change anybody's mind, and I.should have quit on this post a long time ago, I just feel that perhaps others are not making these connections because they are misunderstanding the situation... Any way, I apologize and will stop here... -eg
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benzyme wrote:never been a fan of the "near death experience" hypotheses. many experiences/ligands emulate
the proverbial NDE..NMDA antagonists, hypoxia, etc.
same with psychotomimetic (schizophrenic) hypotheses. they are obsolete; interesting to note, for historical perspectives
I feel psychedelics produce a state analogous to to the conscious states one experiences after death, but before reincarnation, I also feel these compounds can be used to become familiar with these states. Quote:The soul is still experiencing the frightening apparitions and sufferings of the third bardo, and he feels that he will do anything to escape from this condition. He will seek shelter in what appear to be caves or hiding-places, but which are actually the entrances to wombs. He is warned of this by the text of the Bardo Thodol, and urged not to enter them, but to meditate upon the Clear Light instead; for it is still possible for him to achieve the third degree of liberation and avoid rebirth. http://www.near-death.co...n-book-of-the-dead.html
I know this fear, I know it from the depths of the DMT flash, and by learning to react to it properly in the DMT flash, when death occurs I may be able to avoid jumping back into incarnation... Again, I'll stop, this is an endogenous DMT thread. -eg
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nope. I've felt mystical experiences, near death experiences, and a near-fatal experience...on phencyclidine. and relating to religious dogma was never a part of my experiences, tryptamine-related or otherwise. spirituality-wise, yea..I see dmt as a model ligand. I can see that "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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benzyme wrote:nope.
I've felt mystical experiences, near death experiences, and a near-fatal experience...on phencyclidine.
and relating to religious dogma was never a part of my experiences, tryptamine-related or otherwise. Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness. My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues. I dislike the term after life, because it's nothing like life, it's actually the antithesis of life...which is by definition what death is supposed to be, the opposite of life... death is like the DMT flash, there is no time, no physics, you have left three dimensional Newtonian time and space, you have no physical form (though most the time I feel like I have arms and at times my residual physical form breaks through) you also have no ego, it's like becoming a blank slate, everything you knew in your past physical incarnation becomes like a dream after waking, you think "I vaguely remember what my body looked like, and my name, and earth, and friends and family, but that's all gone now" it's obvious that you are "light years" away from all those things, they are no longer the central focus of your conscious-being, they are more like distant memories...you are still fully conscious but you are also fully disconnected from everything related to the dimension in which earth and your physical form existed, you are in non-physical.space, there's no time, and no matter, it's an entirely novel plane compared to.the one you departed from. Everything about the DMT flash seems analogous to what one experiences at death. What may seem "religious" to you may actually be intrinsic to the nature of conscious being. I doubt you read in detail all that non-sense that I posted, but if you ever have some free time look it over, don't think of it as reading a spiritual work about Buddhism or shamanism, look at it as describing consciousness, and try to relate what is bring said to your entheogemic experiences I'll Again leave with some quotes from the most "dogmatic religious fanatic" around, Mr. Terence McKenna Quote:When consciousness is finally understood, it will mean that the absence of consciousness will be understood. The study of consciousness leads, inevitably, to the study of death. Death is both a historical and an individual phenomenon about which we, as monkeys, have great anxiety. But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more. Death isn't simple extinction. The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna Quote:"If one leaves aside the last three hundred years of historical experience as it unfolded in Europe and America, and examines the phenomenon of death and the doctrine of the soul in all its ramifications - Neoplatonic, Christian, dynastic-Egyptian, and so on, one finds repeatedly the idea that there is a light body, an entelechy that is somehow mixed up with the body during life and at death is involved in a crisis in which these two portions separate. One part loses its raison d'etre and falls into dissolution; metabolism stops. The other part goes we know not where. Perhaps nowhere if one believes it does not exist; but then one has the problem of trying to explain life. And, though science makes great claims and has done well at explaining simple atomic systems, the idea that science can make any statement about what life is or where it comes from is currently preposterous." Terence McKenna -eg
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I've always been ambivalent about the endogenous DMT theory. I'm probably in the minority here thinking this way, but I honestly don't believe it would have a huge amount of consequence either way. If it is true, then we can unify lot of different consciousness-related phenomena under a single chemical stimulus. But if not, it's still possible that these states are unified in some way.
On this latter view, it is the intrinsic nature of the brain-mind system that's poised in such a way to have dynamic access to a variety of states, and similar states can be brought about by diverse circumstances. In other words, you could say that there are many different keys for opening the same lock. This would be best explained under a systems theoretical model of the brain. So, it's entirely possible that a certain meditative technique (say) can induce a brain state that bears certain similarities to one induced through the use of a certain psychedelic. A lot of theoretical work on how psychedelics act have to do with the idea that certain structures or functional operations of the brain and/or psyche work to gate unconscious information out of awareness. There happens to be similar ideas at work in theorizing about psychosis, mystical states, creativity, etc. All of these phenomena have been conceptualized in relation to the concepts of "transliminality", "latent disinhibition", "boundary thinness" - the idea that the boundaries separating the conscious mind from subconscious mind can become permeable, to varying degrees, under different circumstances. These various states don't produce something out of scratch; rather, they amplify psychological (or perhaps spiritual) contents that are already "there", behind the margins of ordinary awareness. So - although they do so via different pathways - meditation, dreaming, etc, might engender similar experiences by eroding the boundaries to the subconscious.
And indeed there is evidence that psychedelics and meditation are similar in that they both decrease activity in an area of the brain called the default mode network. Certain attentional and cognitive processes during meditation are thought to be responsible for these changes - thus, no appeal to endogenous DMT is necessary to explain the similarity (Acosta Urquidi 2015).
I also think that some of the states which are thought to be closely related to DMT experiences are actually much more different than similar. This includes, for example, near-death experiences, psychosis, and even perhaps alien abduction experiences. There are indeed certain general phenomenological similarities between these states, but the differences are vast. The notion that psychedelics can be a model for schizophrenia is pretty much defunct, having been falsified by several lines of evidence. So, I think we should be very careful in reducing a highly complex variety of experiential phenomena to one molecule's stimulus.
Regarding the endogenous DMT hypothesis: there's evidence for and against it. Obviously, the strongest support comes from the recent study that found DMT to be present in the pineal gland of rats. However, other data don't fit. For instance, numerous studies have searched for difference in the levels of DMT metabolites in the bodily fluids of schizophrenic patients as compared to control subjects - no differences were detected, so there was nothing suggesting psychiatric patients had more DMT in their system (Wyatt, Mandel, Ahn, Walker, & VandenHeuvel 1973, Oon, Murray, Brockington, Rodnight, & Birley 1975, Murray & Oon 1976, Corbett, Christian, Morin, Benington, & Smythies 1978 ) . Another study examined DMT metabolite levels throughout the day and night to see if levels peaked at any time - while levels fluctuated, there was no significant peak in DMT metabolite levels at night, contradicting the hypothesis that increased DMT production is responsible for dreams (Oon, Murray, Rodnight, Murphy, & Birley 1977).
Bottom line is I'm open to both hypotheses - but I'll have to wait for more evidence (i.e., in humans) to come in on the endogenous DMT theory.
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entheogenicgnosis, I find it much more likely that DMT is one of many naturally occurring initiators of profound mystical experience, but that does not necessitate it being fundamental to these experiences. It's much more likely that the circuitry for these experiences is independent of their triggers, with DMT, NDEs, hypoxia, meditation, etc. simply being different keys that open the same lock. Occam's razor necessarily precludes the concept of DMT as being the "spirit molecule" in that even if it were, you'd have to explain how you get from DMT to the actual experience and the mechanics involved therein. At that point, there is no need to attribute special properties to the molecule, since those properties are emergent from the system rather than inherent to one of its parts. This is a hugely pervasive misconception even in my own field, surprisingly. EDIT: zapped more eloquently expressed a similar sentiment 
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:benzyme wrote:nope.
I've felt mystical experiences, near death experiences, and a near-fatal experience...on phencyclidine.
and relating to religious dogma was never a part of my experiences, tryptamine-related or otherwise. Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness. My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues. I dislike the term after life, because it's nothing like life, it's actually the antithesis of life...which is by definition what death is supposed to be, the opposite of life... death is like the DMT flash, there is no time, no physics, you have left three dimensional Newtonian time and space, you have no physical form (though most the time I feel like I have arms and at times my residual physical form breaks through) you also have no ego, it's like becoming a blank slate, everything you knew in your past physical incarnation becomes like a dream after waking, you think "I vaguely remember what my body looked like, and my name, and earth, and friends and family, but that's all gone now" it's obvious that you are "light years" away from all those things, they are no longer the central focus of your conscious-being, they are more like distant memories...you are still fully conscious but you are also fully disconnected from everything related to the dimension in which earth and your physical form existed, you are in non-physical.space, there's no time, and no matter, it's an entirely novel plane compared to.the one you departed from. Everything about the DMT flash seems analogous to what one experiences at death. What may seem "religious" to you may actually be intrinsic to the nature of conscious being. I doubt you read in detail all that non-sense that I posted, but if you ever have some free time look it over, don't think of it as reading a spiritual work about Buddhism or shamanism, look at it as describing consciousness, and try to relate what is bring said to your entheogemic experiences I'll Again leave with some quotes from the most "dogmatic religious fanatic" around, Mr. Terence McKenna Quote:When consciousness is finally understood, it will mean that the absence of consciousness will be understood. The study of consciousness leads, inevitably, to the study of death. Death is both a historical and an individual phenomenon about which we, as monkeys, have great anxiety. But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more. Death isn't simple extinction. The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna Quote:"If one leaves aside the last three hundred years of historical experience as it unfolded in Europe and America, and examines the phenomenon of death and the doctrine of the soul in all its ramifications - Neoplatonic, Christian, dynastic-Egyptian, and so on, one finds repeatedly the idea that there is a light body, an entelechy that is somehow mixed up with the body during life and at death is involved in a crisis in which these two portions separate. One part loses its raison d'etre and falls into dissolution; metabolism stops. The other part goes we know not where. Perhaps nowhere if one believes it does not exist; but then one has the problem of trying to explain life. And, though science makes great claims and has done well at explaining simple atomic systems, the idea that science can make any statement about what life is or where it comes from is currently preposterous." Terence McKenna -eg TM was an interesting man, and quite bonkers. A lot of his musings were highly intuitive. That being said, I wouldn't take all his musings as scripture. bardos and chakras aside, dmt is but one of many possible compounds which elicit what leary dubbed as the 8th circuit of consciousness (synonymous with Plato's 8th virtue? perhaps.) DMT is not an exclusive "near death" model, there are several other experiences that fit the description. dream memories? c'mon. you know that is acetylcholine. interesting to note, ibogaine also acts on acetylcholine. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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endogenous dmt is a byproduct of tryptophan metabolism, by an adjacent pathway that is not preferred. genetically, serotonin production is favored... however, some simple tryptamines are produced, and being that >70% of serotonin is produced in the gut, it is probable that higher concentrations of simple tryptamines are also produced there, or nearby tissues, than in the brain. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness.
My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues. This sort of reasoning should perhaps be best done somewhere in the "Spirituality" subforum.
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entheogenic-gnosis wrote:My view is that...are in fact... I hate both these in one sentence  entheogenic-gnosis wrote:...if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues. Not obvious to me, not in the slightest degree, and I mean that, even if we are constituted from separate "entities" as you call it, even if I am willing to go along with that idea, in no way I find it obvious that they have separate "lives" that enables one to die and the other to continue. Only some scripts that tell otherwise like Buddhism and alike tells differently, and maybe it is so, but I do not find it obvious. To me, consciousness could die exactly together with the body, I don't claim it is so, but the possibility I can't rid of by any obviousness. If I take into account my own experiences of time-relativity when undergoing experiments with the consciousness, like plant ceremony, I call out on the possibility that consciousness/awareness could easily end up in a time stretched eternity right before body-death. This could, if so, emulate consciousness survival but all happening within the last second of body life. In this case, body and consciousness are enabled to die together, while on the consciousness part there is still experiencing eternal awareness, in whatever form, in a non eternal format. Just checking out the options here, nothing quotes from other sources, just my own take on it. I'm not telling it is so, but as it dawned on me and sharing.
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I think a big part of the problem that we often tend to not consider is that just because DMT correlates with the near-death and dream states (and so on...) doesn't mean that DMT is responsible for creating these states in natural settings just because DMT could be showing a representation of the NDE without creating a veritable NDE, and most people would be none the wiser. Let's just hypothetically assume that the DMT state was designed by some kind of intelligence, for devil's advocate if nothing else. If this were the case and that intelligence were aware of the phenomenology of dreaming states and NDEs, then it could design a simulation of those states. It's not too different than a computer graphics artist designing a cutscene that resembles the DMT state. If that artist were to import artificial intelligences into his computer environment, they would be incorrect to assume that the experience they are having is a result of some chemical inside them. Now to pull it all back, I'm not saying it's the case, but since such a scenario could be posited, it is likely that other similar ones could be too, and this should cast doubt on correlating the phenomenology between DMT, dreaming, NDE, etc... "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein
"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead
"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
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benzyme wrote:nope.
I've felt mystical experiences, near death experiences, and a near-fatal experience...on phencyclidine.
and relating to religious dogma was never a part of my experiences, tryptamine-related or otherwise.
spirituality-wise, yea..I see dmt as a model ligand. I can see that I'm not going to debate, if you don't make the connection you don't make the connection... PCP is "light years" away from what I'm describing with these tryptamines. (I've only smoked PCP a single time, so it's very hard for me to compare or contrast with other experiences.... it reminded me of ketamine mixed with high dose DXM and elements of MDMA, I smoked by mistake, I was only 15 and did not understand what a "wet joint" was...until after about 3 or 4 large inhalations....definantly more dissociative than psychedelic. Tim wyllie, while on the PCP episode of Hamilton's pharmacopia, described the key difference between PCP and others entheogens: it does not dissolve the ego, wyllie said "it brings you up with it" or something to that effect. He was basically describing lack of the phenomena I'm describing, though he saw this as beneficial. *...as a result you can't experiance "fanaa" on PCP, yet it's a core feature of the DMT flash. Pcp only makes you "think" you are dead, DMT actually allows you to experiance death. Andre “Christ Bearer” Johnson smoked PCP, and decided to remove his penis, he said "I thought I was already dead, so what did I Need it for" he claims he is proud of this decision, and he goes into religious similar rants on the topic, yet this is still NOT the phenomena I'm describing. It can happen by other means, but with DMT it's fairly consistent. Again, I don't condemn, I don't convert, if you want to hear my thoughts fine, but if you want to debate, your probably talking to the wrong person, there's no way you can tell or show another proof, they have to experience it on their own... -eg
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Global wrote:I think a big part of the problem that we often tend to not consider is that just because DMT correlates with the near-death and dream states (and so on...) doesn't mean that DMT is responsible for creating these states in natural settings just because DMT could be showing a representation of the NDE without creating a veritable NDE, and most people would be none the wiser. Let's just hypothetically assume that the DMT state was designed by some kind of intelligence, for devil's advocate if nothing else. If this were the case and that intelligence were aware of the phenomenology of dreaming states and NDEs, then it could design a simulation of those states. It's not too different than a computer graphics artist designing a cutscene that resembles the DMT state. If that artist were to import artificial intelligences into his computer environment, they would be incorrect to assume that the experience they are having is a result of some chemical inside them. Now to pull it all back, I'm not saying it's the case, but since such a scenario could be posited, it is likely that other similar ones could be too, and this should cast doubt on correlating the phenomenology between DMT, dreaming, NDE, etc... Keep in mind, your view, is the newer concept, these chemicals were entheogens before their structures were elucidated in the lab, a purely "scientific" view of entheogens is the newer concept. ..and if it were a truly scientific view you would not be so quick to jump to conclusions, there isn't much evidence one way or another, and, evidence for this type of issue can not be generated, it's a personal decision you must make based on your experience. ...at one point people all thought the earth was flat, and to say otherwise was absurd, now an imitation of scientific thought has become the new cultural dogma... ..."consciousness is a product of the brain", this is you claim, where is your evidence? ..."consciousness is generated by the physical body" ok, so where is your evidence? Where is consciousness generated, and how?... Quote:I think a big part of the problem that we often tend to not consider is that just because DMT correlates with the near-death and dream states (and so on...) doesn't mean that DMT is responsible for creating these states in natural settings just because DMT could be showing a representation of the NDE without creating a veritable NDE, and most people would be none the wiser But, because it correlates with and represents after death and mystical states so effectively, could it not then be used to understand and map these states? I'm sure most people will use DMT and never try to relate it to anything bigger than an intoxication, which is fine, by why criticize the people who can effectively and reliably use these substances for entheogenic means? Most would not consider datura species spiritual, but shamans have found effective Entheogenic uses for these plants, so, just because it's difficult for you to make this connection between a plant or chemical experiance and it's spiritual implications, does not mean these things can not be used in that manner. Again, if you can read all the spiritual material I posted in this thread, specially considering "bardo states" and "fanaa", and see absolutely no relation to spirituality, than I don't know what to tell you, you will have to generate your understanding of death by some other means. Quote:ND: You have said that an important part of the mystical quest is to face up to death and recognize it as a rhythm of life. Would you like to enlarge on your view on the implications of the dying process?
TM: I take seriously the notion that these psychedelic states are an anticipation of the dying process-or, as the Tibetans refer to it, the Bardo level beyond physical death. It seems likely that our physical lives are a type of launching pad for the soul. As the esoteric traditions say, life is an opportunity to prepare for death, and we should learn to recognize the signposts along the way, so that when death comes, we can make the transition smoothly. I think the psychedelics show you the transcendental nature of reality. It would be hard to die gracefully as an atheist or existentialist. Why should you? Why not rage against the dying of the light? But if in fact this is not the dying of the light but the Dawning of the Great Light, then one should certainly not rage against that. There's a tendency in the New Age to deny death. We have people pursuing physical immortality and freezing their heads until the fifth millennium, when they can be thawed out. All of this indicates a lack of balance or equilibrium. The Tao flows through the realms of life and nonlife with equal ease.
-terence mckenna
-eg
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