What will be the most precise way of extracting of N,N-DMT from mimosa hostilis if one had access to a lab ?

I read a few of the teks and most of them describe the extraction process as a form of "recipe" with recommended equipment as milk jugs, naphtha, jars and virtually no reference to the temperature of the substances at various points during the extraction, no formulas or explanation as to why or how using data as solubility, boiling/melting points, ratios of the substances etc.

Of the many recipes out there Vovin's tek stands out as it is one of the more detailed and uses many lab glassware for the extraction, but still lacks some very important information like the temperature of the solution or the solvent, the ratio for the substances mixing (specific quantity of how much to add of each substance)...

I know many of you have pretty good knowledge - people like benzyme - and I was wondering why nobody cares to update the old tek's information or to give a clear, concise and detailed explanation of the procedure.

I will soon be doing Vovin's acid-base extraction and I have a few questions before starting, and will probably have a few dozen more after I start.

So I will start with the most basic - what is VM&P naphtha?
Do I need to use this instead of the many non polar solvents like cyclohexane, pentane, hexane, heptane ( toluene benzene etc )? Will all of the other NP solvents cause undesireble result like reddish pigment or something else?

Hello,

VM&P is some brand of paint remover in the US, if I'm not mistaken - have you tried google yet?

You can use most if not all non-polar solvents that are immiscible with water, except when doing a "dry" tek in which case water-miscible solvents can bd used... The results of your extraction will not only depend on your choice of solvent, but also on the way you recover your product from the solvent...

Most teks, I think, are written with the layman in mind who doesn't have access to lab glassware and not always a good comprehension of chemistry... However, you can find sub-sections of the forum, and lots of topics in various sections, where people go deeper into discussing the chemical processes of extraction and purification of desirables...

Some teks, for instance Cyb's MAX ION tek, do offer some insight and explanations as to why certain products are used, or certain ratios, temperatures etc...

Also, a lot of data regarding solubility, boiling/melting points etc can be found in the FAQ and WIKI sections (bottom left corner of the Nexus banner at the top of your screen)...

I hope this helps

PLUR

PS It's not because a tek says you can use plastic jugs that you have to - feel free to use glassware instead, safer and healthier - these teks are not written in stone, feel free to experiment you'll learn a lot from it...

There is no one particular solvent you have to use over all others, though there are some that are advisable not to use at all and some that would be recommended over others, depending on the extraction method and desired result (I for one am waiting on the day I can use D-Limonene).

Personally (using a STB method), I have found using heptane as the main NPS (non polar solvent) gives good/precise results, though it is a lot more selective than VM&P/Naphtha, commonly known as lighter fluid in the UK, aka 'short-chain aliphatic hydrocarbons'.

I have also used naphtha as the main NPS and following up with heptane for a re-x. In my experience the latter gives better yields but the former comes out cleaner. I re-x either way as I enjoy doing it.

I would say that if you are wanting something that is nice and selective then heptane/hexane makes a good choice.

Teks are just general ideas or guidelines on possibility of how to extract a product. Correctly done, most teks in this forum will give equivalent good yield and purity. Many modifications can be made in terms of solvents and chemicals, but I don`t see how you could increase much more the yield with lab equipment.

As long as your plant material is powdered, you will get very close to everything with our usual extraction processes. We in the nexus have yields from mimosa that are better than some researchers have been reporting in peer reviewed publications with their lab methods. If the plant material wasnt powdered, maybe a sonicator would help (but so would a pressure cooker and freeze/thawing). Or rotovap etc would help with evaporating solvents under vacuum, but wouldnt increase yields. Or vacuum filtering saves time and trouble specially when extracting harmalas. But again, can`t see it as being an issue of yields, or of measuring quantities.

I suggest working on understanding each part of an extraction`s steps, what is the purpose of each step and chemical. Then you can change according to the solvents and bases and acids that are available for you, and your personal preferences.

Most of the info is already in the FAQ and wiki. If there`s anything you can`t find answer to there or here, feel free to ask.

If you are in a public lab,first of all obtain a relevant license for doing such an extraction in the lab, since dmt is scheduled in many countries.

Second, depending on the type of work is being carried in the lab, find if relevant Risk Assessment forms are in place to do said extraction. If not, then you have to write a Risk assessment relating to the dmt extraction you want to do and get it authorised by your line-in manager.

These two are the most basic steps if you actually want to do an extraction in a public lab. The rest is just standard lab protocol - unless of course you are talking about a private lab, in which case none of the two above are needed.

I also hope that you do not have in mind to clandestinely sneak a dmt extraction in a lab.

Regarding a protocol, dmt extraction is more like cooking than doing french pastry, so freehanding and fiddling along the way is very forgiving.

So how are you "cooking" it ? How would you do it if you had lab equipment and chemicals at your disposal.. You certainly wouldn't use turkey baster to separate liquid layers.. you would use sep funnel for ex. You wouldn't add household vinegar - instead maybe lab grade HCL diluted to certain concentration.

It all depends but I generally refrain from using lab chemicals and equipment. First and foremost, I find the idea of "helping myself" to a lab's stocks immoral. And on the other hand, many people may hesitate to order "exotic" chemicals (like HCl if it cannot be sourced locally) from the internet.

The idea here on the Nexus is that high quality extractions can be performed safely using easy-to-source, readily available reagents and equipment. Vinegar is readily available but also too impure and lab HCl is just too lab-y already, so I go for citric, tartaric or fumaric acid. A pinch in some water will do and since these are weak acids anyway there are no concerns for pH extremes.

As for bases, KOH or NAOH can be procured easily, if not then calcium hydroxide or sodium carbonate (that can also be made at home) fit the bill. No need for lab here either.

As for separatory funnel, it does help to have one but it also depends on what you want it for. Separatory funnels are quite useful for back-salting hydrocarbon NPS as the water that people collect goes to the bottom. It is also great to use with of DCM, chloroform or other halogenated solvents are available because they are also sink, so you can retrieve your pull from the basic soup easily. But separatory funnels totally suck if you use a top-floating hydrocarbon solvent because you need to remove the basic aqueous layer first which gives you these problems:

1. the basic soup smears the walls of the separatory funnel A LOT and you need to do repeated washes with basified clean water to get rid of these before you can retrieve your NPS.

2. Moving around basic liquid from vessel to vessel is a risk procedure. Accidents do happen, so leave your highly basic soup in one place.

3. separatory funnels cannot be used in STB teks as particles clock the valve.

So yes, unless you use halogenated solvents, your best option is a turkey baster here. But a glass pyrex gravy separator may also be what you are looking for (google it) if you are determined to use a separatory funnel.

Lab approaches as you put it are a tad over-exaggerated; if you want to introduce parameters like pH and temperature values, times, vacuum filters, separatory funnels etc be my guest, but in the end none is really required no does it guarantee you a better product anyway. Complicating things are for the total hobbyists - and I just do not see the point. I do love the sight of lab glassware in an extraction, but that's purely aesthetical.

And all of them unnecessary. Just a look at the magnificent extractions and crystals grown by people just by using simple set-ups...

You also mentioned centrifuges - they are cool for partitioning and making things precipitate fast....but then again nothing really impressive and filtration/ settling-decanting do the same job. I really wonder if you have ever used a centrifuge to aid an extraction and if yes, whether you found it to make things particularly easy. I mean, you mention here centrifugation as an example of lab extraction aid which is many levels below other lab equipment that can truly aid an extraction like a sonicator or a soxhlet.

There is a difference between "cool things swiy can use in a lab" and lab equipment that can actually make a difference in an extraction.

Now correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no chemist afterall.

I get the impression however that someone who is working in a laboratory and knows how to utilize things like rotovapes, centrifuges, sonicators and the like should understand how to do a simple acid base extraction and wouldn't really need to be following one of our teks, would they?

This site is full of clear, concise, and detailed explanations of various extractions. I'd venture to say virtually any question you can ask about a mimosa extraction has already been covered someplace on this site.



Glad I wasn't the only one wondering this.

Definitely not the only one. I've gotta say that the OP's intentions sound, at least as they stand now, a tad sketchy. I personally would like to know what kind of lab he plans on extracting dmt in and whether he has the relevant paperwork in place for doing so legally.

The point is that I can allow myself to buy most chemicals locally that can be sourced. I'm not from the USA and most things aren't closely watched chemicals like NaOH is in USA for making meth. I want to make as pure as possible, and precise as possible extraction, since it will be my first I don't want to mess up like many others have messed up before me.

Glassware setup in my workshop is much more cleaner than using my frying pans or storage jars, so I thought if was about to be doing 50g per each extraction of 1000g of mimosa I would have to repeat it around 20times, and after that even more if some of my friends want.

So no I wouldn't have access to rotary evaporators or centrifuges, but most of the glassware, and lab grade chemicals.

Thank you for clarifying that by "lab" you mean your workshop!

lol the point was never where i am going to do the extraction. i could be doing it in Helmholtz Zentrum or in a shed doesn't matter.. what I wanted to know is to what degree the equipment plays a role in the extraction and what would one be using if it was readily available. and i got a gist how things are.

aside from the obvious, like near a cop station, it doesn't really matter where an extraction is done; the reagents and solvents used should be tech grade at least, and preferably, some form of pH monitoring is implemented.

I favor dichloromethane as the solvent, it's old-school, and very effective. Some people seem to think it will cause you to grow extra thumbs or rot out your kidneys. Hasn't happened to me yet, and I've worked with it for years (I won't insult your intelligence, because anyone with some sense would understand how to safely handle chemicals, or at least find out how to handle them, so I don't reiterate safety precautions. The aforementioned people tend to have a fear of what they don't understand, so they seek non-toxic, food-safe teks to make their psychedelic salad dressing).

Ethyl acetate is a good one too, but more miscible with water (although, either DCM or EtOAc will form a bilayer with the basic phase). Don't heat the basic phase prior to extracting with ethyl acetate, it may catalyze hydrolysis of the organic solvent at the liquid/liquid interface. Hexane is my re-x solvent of choice, but pet. ether/light naphtha work well too.

Lmao

Yeah, your just better off sticking to the basics for an extraction and go from there. No fancy equipment needed.

One thing I find really helpful (and I know some might think otherwise do to it taking more time) are glass pipettes w/ bulb, for pulling the nps off the top of the basic solution. Siphoning off 10ml at a time can be redundant, but it is precise and there is absolutely no spillage from a glass pipette and you can get every last bit of nps layer off the top, versus trying to work a baster in there and potentially taking up a mess of basic solution.

my 2c

much love,
tat

hello Tatt, have you tried a 20ml or 50ml glass syringe, I find there a good halfway house between baster and pipettes, they are accurate but also hold a fair amount of solvent, I wouldn't go back to my baster or pipette.