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Lophophora williamsii var. Caespitosa Options
 
joshisom
#1 Posted : 4/30/2013 11:18:34 AM
anyone have any experience with Lophophora williamsii var. Caespitosa? ive done research some say it is just as good as the original other say it has much less but this may be due to grafting? it is a more clumping variety of peyote id like to talk with someone who has first hand experience
 
Parshvik Chintan
#2 Posted : 4/30/2013 9:36:05 PM
afaik grafting doesn't affect the alkaloid content.

i had never heard anything about caespitosa being weaker, so this is news to me (assuming it is correct)
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
joshisom
#3 Posted : 5/2/2013 4:58:31 AM
thers aperently a big contoversy and i kind of think that wieght wise peyote is weaker when grafted because it grows so much faster ive heard it is good to graft a peyote to your choice of fast growing cactus and then once it it big seperate from the host plant and let the alkaloid content catch up with the size of the cactus if caespitosa has a alkaloid content par with traditional peyote i think it would be an extreme benifit for cactus/mescalin lovers who dont want to wait 20 years for ther peyote and once it is that old and you have been with it for that long would you really want to cut it, caespitosa variety has been found to have 50 or more pups shoot out in less than 10 years at times however the buttons do not seem to get as big as williamsii so one would need to consume more small buttons i will soon to some first hand research with caespitosa and post my results because frankly i have not seen one bit of info out on the web exept this and i still am yet to find any posts or info on people who have extracted it

"The appearance of Lophophora williamsii varies widely, and in some events the plants may even occur as single headed individuals, while in others they become "caespitose" forming dense clumps up to two meters across with hundreds of heads. Plants in South Texas and most areas of the range do not seem to form large clumps as often as those in the state of San Luis Potosi, but plants with several pups can arise as the result of harvesting heads for medicinal use, injury by grazing animals or other factors.

Not long ago LW ssp caespitosa has been considered to be a cultivar or a hybrid. However there has been a newly discovered location near La Perdida in the state of Tamaulipas, Mexico that contains plants similar to what was considered a cultivar.

Mescaline to Pellotine concentrations for Caespitosa varieties are similar and consistent to those of L.williamsii ssp williamsii"

the source that this came from is magicactus.com
 
nameless
#4 Posted : 5/2/2013 9:47:15 AM
I have had a few Caespitosa over the years and they have always been on par with the Williamsii as far as alkaloid content. None of mine were grafts, but I imagine if there is a alkaloid difference it would be because of nutrient problems or due to being grafted to a incompatible species for alkaloid production. Almost 9 times out of 10 when alkaloid production is low in Lophophora species it is due to poor soil / nutrient composition.
The problem with wisdom is that it cannot be taught, but ignorance can.
 
Parshvik Chintan
#5 Posted : 5/2/2013 8:11:54 PM
i was told that grafting negatively affecting alkaloid content was a myth.

i personally make no claims to its veracity, i am only repeating what i have heard.
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
joshisom
#6 Posted : 5/3/2013 10:08:08 AM
hey nameless dis you eat the caespitosa or extract it? either way how was it and if you ate do you know the approximate weight or how many buttons did you eat. and if you extracted it what was the yield.
 
joshisom
#7 Posted : 5/7/2013 1:28:16 PM
?
 
nameless
#8 Posted : 5/8/2013 9:24:32 AM
Both, extracted and eaten. Usually I will eat 8 - 10 buttons of either and get the same result. As for the extractions I no longer have the data but I distinctly remember them being almost the same.

I might do another set of extractions this year, if so I will post the results.
The problem with wisdom is that it cannot be taught, but ignorance can.
 
joshisom
#9 Posted : 5/8/2013 9:44:31 AM
thanks how big were the buttons that you harvested to eat i have one thats 6 inches total the parent plant is 2 inches and thers like 50 little pups anywere from a centimeter to an inch
 
infinityandbeyond
#10 Posted : 12/10/2013 11:30:55 AM
I recently managed to acquire a Caespitosa and would love to know if anybody has had some more experience since the last post on here. Of especial interest is approximately how much one would need to ingest. My plant has four bigger pups of around 1 inch each, and loads of tiny ones around 1cm big. Any recommendations and suggestions will be gladly received.
 
Reincarnated
#11 Posted : 2/14/2017 8:53:04 AM
Hi. Anyone got a Lophophora williamsii caespitosa experience?
I may be a poor man but when I close my eyes im sleeping in the palace of kings
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#12 Posted : 2/14/2017 2:14:17 PM
See attached picture, picture was sourced from HERE

I have only consumed a caespitosa loph. Williamsii on a single occasion. I consumed 2 nearly tennis-ball sized cacti, which were claimed to be very old, over 10 years, along with many smaller pups attached to them. The mescaline experience was great, though there was a tactile component involved which I had not noticed with mescaline extract or trichocereus species. Very LSD like open eye visual effects, and a hybrid psychedelic entactogenic head-space, I was very pleased and quite impressed. The duration was a bit much, as I did not reach baseline for around 35+ hours, during the majority of the trip I actually felt sedated, kind of "drunk", though near the end this became stimulation, I mention this because it was somehow distinct from mescaline extract...Again,I only had a single experiance, generally I can't bring myself to consume my lophophora cacti...

There are a good deal of "Ariocarpus sp. lophophora" cacti being sold online, these appear to be Lophophora Williamsii var. caespitosa...I'm not sure if these are actual hybrids, or if they are mislabeled as hybrids to enable sell, as I've only seen pictures.

Then there are caespitosa Lophophora Williamsii var. jourdaniana being sold...
Quote:
The trouble with this plant is, the very fact that it is not a true Lophophora but a hybrid with no proven origin
http://www.magicactus.com/lw_jourdaniana.html


My caespitosa was slow growing up until it reached a few centimeters in diameter, since, it almost doubles size every season, (see pictures attached), this interested me, I have heard it mentioned, and wanted to confirm this observation.

-eg
entheogenic-gnosis attached the following image(s):
Mescaline+and+pellotine+contents+of+peyote+and+Lophophora+(Grym).jpg (19kb) downloaded 192 time(s).
KINDLE_CAMERA_1475509778000.jpg (276kb) downloaded 193 time(s).
KINDLE_CAMERA_1396349845000.jpg (293kb) downloaded 188 time(s).
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#13 Posted : 2/14/2017 2:21:03 PM
The bottom picture of the cacti is from the start of the season, the picture above it is from the end of the season, look at how close the cactus is to the edge of pot at the beginning compared to the end.

-eg
 
Reincarnated
#14 Posted : 2/14/2017 8:03:52 PM
Thanks great reply. Perfect. Will be reading through the links.
With regards to the jourdaniana variety it says that the seeds it
produces are sterile... This makes me think it may be less common, as
presumably grown from cuttings?..
Great growth. Are you in a warm climate? Think this may be a good selection.

I would also like anyones thoughts on annehalonium XHTTL method? ? To me it
seems pretty mad... wondering why it is so controversial... maybe this is
not the correct place to ask..Apologies if that is so.
I may be a poor man but when I close my eyes im sleeping in the palace of kings
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#15 Posted : 2/15/2017 2:24:37 PM
Reincarnated wrote:
Thanks great reply. Perfect. Will be reading through the links.
With regards to the jourdaniana variety it says that the seeds it
produces are sterile... This makes me think it may be less common, as
presumably grown from cuttings?..
Great growth. Are you in a warm climate? Think this may be a good selection.

I would also like anyones thoughts on annehalonium XHTTL method? ? To me it
seems pretty mad... wondering why it is so controversial... maybe this is
not the correct place to ask..Apologies if that is so.


I don't know much about the jourdaniana variety, I have just seen caespitose jourdaniana being offered for sale, and figured these must account for a percentage of the caespitose "lophs" which are found in homes across the country...

I'm actually in a very cold climate, but I'm at high altitude, so it's not humid by any means, cold and generally very dry...

I have had the caespitose for around 5 years now, and it was incredibly slow growing until this last season. I have read that caespitose lophs will almost not grow at all until they reach a good size, then they can grow faster than any other loph variety...

Not familiar with the "annehalonium XHTTL method", correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a hydroponic cultivation method, no? Hydro loph growing is fascinating, but it's not something I am very familiar with.

My background is in chemistry, however as a person fascinated by tryptamine and phenethylamine and lysergamide molecules it's only natural that I have quite a few of the plants that produce these amazing compounds close to me. I'm not the best botanist, and I'll admit that I don't care for my plants as well as I should, but I can't imagine living without them, And always make a point of it to have these plants growing in my home at all times. Plants are the most amazing chemists (fungi as well), and it's difficult not to marvel at these life forms and the chemicals they produce...

If you graft your lophs to a trich or other grafting stock it can drastically increase size, however this does not mean the potency increases with it. Most will tell you that the old lophs are the best, and that time is the best method for potent cacti.



The single time that I consumed a caespitose loph it was when I was at a friend's greenhouse, he had many of these caespitose lophs scattered all over the place. While watering he happened to spill one of the pots, then he proceeded to inadvertently step on the spilled cacti. He was preparing to throw them out, which is when I stepped in, I said "you can't possibly be throwing those out can you?" he explained how he had many many more, and despite their old age, that they were not salvageable, and as he does not eat mescaline ( he simply loves rare cacti ) he said that I was more than welcome to have the squished caespitose cacti. I ate the two tennis-ball sized cacti on the spot, and proceeded to walk home. The walk was nice, the entire time I was dealing with psychosomatic effects of having ate the cacti, as well as my bodies "early warning" signs that I was about to go through an intense psychedelic event. Walking home, I was tense, the knit hat in that I was holding in my hand was being twisted and gripped intensely, however I had not really noticed until I looked at my hands. I was quite stimulated. It was a good deal of time before the actual psychedelia began, it came on with alternating waves of a sedation and stimulation, there was mild body discomfort, and my stomach was churning. mild visuals began at this point. There was a noticeable tactile component which reminded me of 2C-B, and which I had not noticed with mescaline extract. There was also an empathagenic aspect to the experience, I could feel a deep empathy radiating out of everything around me, the objects in the room were emitting this warm glowing empathy, and reflected this in a visual manner. It had been a few hours since I had ingested the cacti, yet it was clear that this was just scratching the surface, that the experience had not even really began...



I'm going to stop here as this is getting fairly lengthy and because the experience report really is not that relevant.

-eg
 
Reincarnated
#16 Posted : 2/16/2017 12:22:38 AM
Thanks. I have no experience with cacti at all. But would gladly read
more about your experience i do enjoy a good report....

What plants do you grow? If you don't mind my asking...
Im very interested in a viable ethno garden. More importantly i just
want to learn...
You can check out http://sacredcactus.org/...00084b57d70d94a2bedcedca if it is of interest.
Here anne claims its possible to grow from seed...to re-rooted golf ball in under 1 year!
From what I have read I understand it would be best to replant at this stage
and grow for a year then in the dark for a year to push up the alks.
If you read through anne says when it comes to alks.. "biomass is biomass"
Not entirely sure if this is true.

However you wrote:

I have had the caespitose for around 5 years now, and it was incredibly slow growing until this last season. I have read that caespitose lophs will almost not grow at all until they reach a good size, then they can grow faster than any other loph variety...

Now theoretically one coud take a cutting of caespitose, hydro grow to a similar size
as yours then reroot. Effectively shortening the 5 year process significantly.?

Thanks for your help
I may be a poor man but when I close my eyes im sleeping in the palace of kings
 
downwardsfromzero
ModeratorChemical expert
#17 Posted : 2/16/2017 8:41:29 PM
Just to chime in here, I've not eaten any of my caespitosas yet, I'm not sure I ever will. The flowers are very beautiful! They also seed fairly readily, so...




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#18 Posted : 2/17/2017 1:50:40 PM
Reincarnated wrote:
Thanks. I have no experience with cacti at all. But would gladly read
more about your experience i do enjoy a good report....

What plants do you grow? If you don't mind my asking...
Im very interested in a viable ethno garden. More importantly i just
want to learn...
You can check out http://sacredcactus.org/...00084b57d70d94a2bedcedca if it is of interest.
Here anne claims its possible to grow from seed...to re-rooted golf ball in under 1 year!
From what I have read I understand it would be best to replant at this stage
and grow for a year then in the dark for a year to push up the alks.
If you read through anne says when it comes to alks.. "biomass is biomass"
Not entirely sure if this is true.

However you wrote:

I have had the caespitose for around 5 years now, and it was incredibly slow growing until this last season. I have read that caespitose lophs will almost not grow at all until they reach a good size, then they can grow faster than any other loph variety...

Now theoretically one coud take a cutting of caespitose, hydro grow to a similar size
as yours then reroot. Effectively shortening the 5 year process significantly.?

Thanks for your help


If you are really interested I can finish the report, but it's fairly long. I'll return and post the finished report, I just have to write it all out.

I collect and grow many plants, most my collection consists of synthetic molecules and extracts, however, I have stored samples of nearly every ethnobotanical or psychoactive plant imaginable, and have a decent fungi collection as well. As far as living plants, I only grow trichicereus cacti and lophophora cacti, well...and cannabis, but since I can easily purchase cannabis at the store I have cut my cannabis cultivation efforts almost entirely.

As far as a garden, I'm probably not the person to ask for advice on this one, as I said, most my collection is not living, or is synthetic....

As far as trying to grow large lophs. Quick, there are many methods available, however, I was under the impression that potency does not increase with this quickly grown biomass, and that time and patience is the best route to potent cacti.

However, I have read about increasing alkaloid production through many means as well, though have never attemptedany of these techniques:

Quote:
CONCENTRATING AND INCREASING ALKALOID LEVELS

There are several different methods of increasing the concentrations of alkaloids in most if not all species of Cactus. One of the main defenses of Cacti is to increase the production of protective alkaloids in response to numerous external stresses. The growing Cactus plant can be "stressed" in a number of ways to help increase the concentration of alkaloids prior to harvest. It should be noted that, since Cacti have a slow metabolism, it may take an entire growing season of stress to significantly affect alkaloid levels. Here are some of the most common and widely tested methods:

Shade - There have been several reports that leaving live, or cut Tricocereus in the shade for several months prior to harvesting does increase the percentage of alkaloids in the tissues of the plant. It is also common in Mexico and South America to leave cut Cacti in large covered stacks for some time prior to being sold. There may be a good reason for that practice.

Excess Sun and Heat - Too much Sun or heat will most definitely stress a live Cactus. It must be realized however, that increasing the alkaloids through stressing will greatly affect the plants growth rate, and might just kill it. Cactus can and do get sunburned, which can be fatal.

Nutrient level variations - Different formulas of fertilizers will affect the growth rate, and therefore the alkaloid mix and percentages. Very high Nitrogen levels in the soil would help to draw water out of the cactus, and promote stress. Use caution as too much Nitrogen will burn your plant. Remember though, a fast growing Cactus is also lower in alkaloids per volume.

Mechanical stress - A much ignored method of significantly increasing alkaloid buildup. The Cactus is cut or gouged in several places to simulate predator damage. The stem can also be girdled by wire, twisted or bent. Care should be taken when penetrating the skin, use sterile techniques to minimize the chance of infection. Although infection would be a major stress on the plant, it would probably die before any useful effects were manifest. Stressing has been practiced on Marijuana for millennia in certain parts of the world, to increase potency.

Watering stress - Depriving the intended victim of water is the most widespread method of trying to increase the alkaloid content. Many people advise to buy your Cactus at least one growing season in advance, and then let them sit, without water, until they are ready to harvest.

Chemical doping - There has been some pioneering work in this area done by Adam Gottlieb.

Increasing the levels of the precursors that lead to mescaline has proven to be a relatively quick and effective way to significantly increase the level of mescaline in a Cactus. There are three major precursors to mescaline, namely dopa, tyramine and dopamine. During mescaline synthesis in the plant, tyrosine is broken down into tyramine and dopa. These then combine to form dopamine, which is later converted to nor-mescaline, and of course mescaline.

It is possible to take advantage of this synthesis route, and use it to vastly increase the mescaline content of the Cactus that will be harvested.

This method can be used successfully on any mescaline bearing Cacti. The steps are as follows:

1. Withhold water from the plant 2 weeks prior to doping. This helps the plant to absorb any injected material more readily.

2. Prepare a saturated solution of free-base dopamine in a .05 N solution of HCL. If dopamine is not available a second best alternative is to use a mixture of tyramine and dopa.

3. Inject approximately 5cc of the solution, half towards the bottom of the plant by the roots. Inject the other half into the green tissue at the base of the plant, and in several other spots up the stem. Do this slowly ,carefully, leaving the needle in place for a few seconds to allow absorption.

4. Wait 4 to 8 weeks before harvest to let the additives metabolize and convert to mescaline. I would not stress the plant during this period, as an actively growing plant is necessary for efficient metabolism.

5. The harvest can be delayed further and a series of booster injections can be given every 6 - 8 weeks to bolster alkaloid levels even more.

Unfortunately many of these precursor compounds are hard to come by or controlled.

Donana ( Coryphantha macromersis ) can be processed in a similar manner to increase its levels of macromerine. Injections of nor-epinephrine can be given in a similar manner about a month prior to harvest.
https://www.erowid.org/p...guide/cacti_guide7.shtml


-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis
#19 Posted : 2/17/2017 2:38:52 PM
downwardsfromzero wrote:
Just to chime in here, I've not eaten any of my caespitosas yet, I'm not sure I ever will. The flowers are very beautiful! They also seed fairly readily, so...


I have not been able to bring myself to eat any of mine either...

The lophs I consumed had been spilled from their pot and accidentally stepped on by their grower, this cacti collector does not consume mescaline, and is only interested in rare plants, this collector was going to throw the smashed cacti into the garbage, so it seemed like a prime opportunity, where I could eat these cacti, without feeling guilty or taking on the karma of murdering such a magical life form.

When I was in Arizona, the Navajo shaman would even be very careful and delicate with the harvested peyote buttons, being mindful to not drop it bruise them*...




*background story

(Sorry these are all incomplete, I could fill many books worth of text just outlining a single event, and have even started to write and compile detailed reports of these events which I may publish in the future...any way, I'm going to write out the end to my last story, as well as this one, and will copy and paste it in later. )

When I was in school, I went to "The open school", this was a hippie type school, so no dress code, no desks, there were couches in the classrooms, all the teachers were called by their first names, the students would decide the school rules, which were called norms, in weekly "governance" meetings, and there was a strong philosophy of first hand experience. The first week of school you go on a camping trip in the mountains so everybody can get to know each other. Rather than read about a place, they would take you there, so if you take a class about Ireland, you would be going on a trip to Ireland as part of the class...

...Any way, getting to the point, when I was in school we took a "southwest tour" class, we went to the four corners, Chaco canyon New Mexico, and to the Navajo reservation at Canyon de Chelly, Arizona, (amoung other places). We were on the reservation to plant peach trees, apparently when the Europeans first came they would chop down the Navajo peach trees in an attempt to cut off their food supply, so our school would go down there to plant to plant peach trees.
During my stay I would frequently talk with the shaman, and near the end of my stay he asked me to sit in on a peyote ceremony. This was quite uncommon is what I was told, most the people on the reservation were still fairly hostile towards whites, and even the ones who we were friendly with were constantly poking fun at us, for example, I noticed a Navajo phrase that was applied to myself and a few others, and later found out it translated to "walking snow". Any way, for outsiders to sit in on a ceremony was rare, and for a white person, in this community, it was nearly unheard of. Only myself, and one of my classmates were asked to participate, my classmate was of south American decent, his grandpa was a shaman, and through this he also made a connection with the Navajo shaman.
We began the hike down the canyon. It was terrifying, if you fall, it's instant death, thousands of feet to the bottom, the ledges you had to walk along were very narrow, and when looking down it was very easy to become disoriented. As I made Made my way down I could hear the laughter of two young Navajo girls, who were running full speed, in bare feet, across the narrow ledges and steep rock faces, they were quite amused at how scared I was, and seemed to navigate the treacherous terrain with ease and without any fear at all. The shaman would occasionally stop and tell my what a rock carving would mean, and showed me a carving which represented the Christians arrival, and depicted the spirits of the ancestors pulling the white man over the edge of the cliffs, at the end of the story adding "be careful looking over the edge, the spirits still like to pull white people over it"
When we reached the bottom we got to a small wooden building, we entered and were seated in a circle. The peyote was stored in a basket, the cacti were very carefully wrapped up in cloth, the shaman explained that they treat the cacti, or the spirits within the cacti, like a living, feeling being, and like to make sure that it is not jolted around, a bumped, or bruised, by
wrapping the cacti in cloth, and by handling the cacti very carefully...




-eg
 
Reincarnated
#20 Posted : 2/19/2017 10:00:53 AM
Thanks again for the very comprehensive reply. I think i will have to get
A couple of caespitose and just sit tight. From what's been said i think
if treated with respect then the experience....when it comes. ...will have greater
Meaning.

All by reflection.

I will post the experience but don't hold your breath it could be
20 years away....
In the meantime suppose I'll have to get multiple brigdessi going Very happy
I may be a poor man but when I close my eyes im sleeping in the palace of kings
 
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