So I recently learned about a theory that was proposed originally in the 90's and is still being developed, but it explains consciousness and the psychedelic experience more so than any other theory I know of. It's called Orch OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction) and is the synthesis of theories by Stuart Hameroff, an anesthesiologist and incredibly smart man, and Roger Penrose, a mathematician and theoretical physicist. Their theory posits that consciousness is the result of quantum computations performed by the proteins of the microtubules within the brain's neurons. It's a very complex theory, but I'll try and summarize it for those who don't know and are interested (everyone here should be!):

The quantum world is that of the atom and below. It's where classical physics breaks down and quantum mechanics begin. Weird laws operate here. For example, superposition is the state in which an electron or any particle is simultaneously in every potential state. This principal is integral to the quantum computer because a bit can be both 1 and 0 as opposed to that of a classical computer which can only be 1 or 0. When an observer (a scientist) measures a particle in superposition, it chooses only 1 state out of the mix of potential ones. It does so neither deterministically nor randomly (similar to free will). This 'choice' is called by a few different names: objective reduction, collapse of the wave function/wave vector. When the wave function of a particle in superposition collapses, it chooses one state. One can equate this to a single bit of information being determined. Roger Penrose puts forth the theory that a system in superposition will collapse (objectively reduce) on its own if isolated for a long enough time. A single electron in superposition would collapse after 10 million years. The time it takes for the system to collapse is determined by the equation E = ħ/t. I'll attempt to explain this equation. Penrose suggests that superposition is an inherently unstable thing and that when a particle is in two places at the same time, it's a fracturing of space-time on the most fundamental level. The degree to which a superposed system fractures reality is 'E'. 'ħ' is what's called the reduced Planck Constant. It's a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics that I don't know much about, and 't' is the time until the system's wave function collapses. So essentially, the more a system fractures reality (the more intense the superposition), the sooner the state of possibilities reduces to one reality. Stuart Hammeroff believes this moment of reduction is the same as a moment of consciousness. It's a bit of information coming from the quantum superstructure of reality. It's important to note that this quantum universe contains the information of and for everything that is, was, will be or could be. In the strict sense, it's a supreme intelligence because of how much information it holds. So, considering this wave function collapse is a moment of consciousness, they looked to see how the brain could harness this.

The microtubules of a cell are what give it structure, like tent-poles. They have other functions though. Hammeroff has studied them for much of his career and was inspired to investigate them as the potential source of consciousness because anesthesia, which makes you unconscious but doesn't impair vital brain activity, targets the microtubules and the surrounding areas. Microtubules are composed of many many proteins and they exist within every neuron. Through a lot of complicated biological processes, Hameroff and Penrose believe these proteins themselves enter superposition. Because of the tremendous amount of proteins in the brain, they are a system with a very high 'E' value. When superposed in unison, they collapse the wave-function very rapidly. They calculate that in a normal state of mind, this happens 40 times per second. Thus, you experience 40 moments of consciousness per second. They also show how different brain states, such as that of adrenaline-sped activity, increases the moments of consciousness per second. That's why people perceive time as going slowly. Same applies to when one is excited, happy, or having fun. They also show that altered states from psychedelics increase the number of conscious moments per second by a lot. This makes sense! The fast paced influx of information on, say, a DMT trip, is potentially information coming from this quantum world. It's just that we're receiving a lot more of than usual.

I was thinking the other day about this theory and wrote down some ideas. I don't know if they've been thought of or are accounted for in the theory somewhere, but I'll share them: Every moment of every second, your brain has a unique electrical make-up. If you could take a still-frame photo of your brain's activity at 1/40th of a second, that would be the electricity that corresponds to whatever you were perceiving in that 1/40th of a second. It could be that every 1/40th (depending on the brain state) of a second, the state of your brain is put into superposition and collapses. This would result in a quantum 'calculation' based on the input (sensory data and previous consciousness fed back in) that is entirely relevant to you. It'd therefore not be random information coming back from the quantum world but information that is directly related to the input. This explains why our consciousness is relevant to what we're experiencing. Maybe a psychedelic experience such as DMT is a feedback loop of consciousness. You don't receive any sensory input from outside (or very little), so it's just pure consciousness out, pure consciousness back in. That's why you get the sensation that you leave your body in pure 'spirit' form and roam the universe. I'll try and find the source where I saw the brain-state/wave-funtion collapse rate correlation.

Anyway, I'd like to hear what people think. Have you heard this stuff before? Does it makes sense? Etc...

Here are some links too:

Recent status of the theory. It's two parts and the second can be found on youtube as well:

** (Recommended, though it's dense and fast-paced. He's responding to criticisms of the theory) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAVQjMf2fEQ

Their website: http://www.quantumconsci...ose-hameroff/orchor.html
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ated_objective_reduction

Stuart Hameroff in 2010 at TEDx in Brussels talking a bit about his theory and a lot about it's importance:

** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8

Here's the lecture in which Stuart Hameroff shows how different states of mind affect the number of conscious moments we have per second. The whole lecture is worth watching to understand the science.

The link is to the video at 42:54 so you can see this particular information. It starts by showing the microtubule proteins and how they go into superposition and collapse, then explains the process in a real-world example, and finally shows the chart of different brain-states and their frequency of conscious moments (chart is at time: 44:30).

http://www.youtube.com/w...layer_detailpage#t=2574s

About 'altered states,' Hameroff says, "In an altered state, of whatever kind, you might actually go into the quantum state and not reach threshold [for collapse] so that you would merge your consciousness with what's normally subconscious."

Is this not what the experience feels like? Like merging your consciousness with a greater consciousness?

I actually mentioned this in another post a few days ago, it's a fascinating model but my knowledge of physics is pretty basic. Your breakdown makes this more accessible so thanks for taking the time to post this.

Edited to add:


This definitely makes sense, and in fact I described it in similar terms myself in notes I made during an LSD/Vipassana experiment on another site:



Fascinating subject, it'll be cool to see the input from others on this from both scientific and contemplative backgrounds.

Doubly edited...


There is a phenomena encountered in the higher stages of vipassana which is known as a "fruition". It's basically a paradoxical non-experience wherein the whole of experience completely stops for an instant, but afterwards the yogi is said to have attained "Path", which is best described as a complete perceptual shift. A few physicists in the pragmatic dharma community have suggested that this experience/non-experience could be described in terms of wave-function collapse; when a Path is attained, and I speak from experience here, the subject/object duality is dissolved to reveal more and more subtle levels of fundamental ignorance. When it first happens, you think you've seen through the whole 'thing' but it's absolutely not the case. As you progress through the Paths, depending on which model you're working with, you can arrive at a point where that duality is obliterated entirely and distinction no longer occurs.

Just thought I'd throw that into the pot and see what comes of it.

Thanks Non Dua Natura, I agree with the things you say.

I don' think this theory totally explains the psychedelic experience even though it may be accurate. This is because psychedelics haven't been studied enough! The experience is so bizarre but often so meaningful that even if it is quantum information, why exactly is the that altered consciousness so fundamentally different from this one if we experience all forms of consciousness from the same place? Entheogen's effects can't be reduced so easily, nor do I think the theory is complete in explaining them anyway. It seems like something or some things that are 'living' exist in the quantum world, though. That needs to be addressed if it even can be. Who or what are these beings we interact with? Is this the 'God' ancient cultures believed in (or Gods). If so, are they/is it truly a God of some sort? It's not easy science to do. Kind of like exploring a black hole. Some information just can't be retrieved form that world. Maybe subjective experience is the only tool we've got. Will science ever accept that which goes against it's core philosophy? Maybe some will given the fairly new understanding that a conscious observer can affect the quantum world with the use of attention. Will modern societies eventually accept these worlds as real and that higher beings exist there? I've always thought science and religion will one day intersect. Doubt it will be a smooth change.

IMO science and spirituality (not necessarily religion) have already been intersecting in many areas for at least the last 30-40 years. Check out the book 'the tao of physics' (written in the 70's), for instance. Or more recent books by Fred Alan wolf. There are many other examples, its a particular fascination of mine I've been studying for quite awhile. Several of your questions were addressed in a recent thread HERE. It's a pretty good representation of my current personal take on it all and I don't really feel like typing it all out again. But I'd be happy to try and elaborate if it seems to fit for you.

Awesome thread!

Thanks for typing out such a complete and well articulated explanation, Rider.

I had come to this idea some time ago. What cued me in to the quantum change during psychedelic use was the distortion of time. I have had times where it seemed time didn't even exist. I figure our consciousness has to work on some type of quantum level, since the neurotransmitters are fairly small molecules, and the way neurons work. It makes perfect sense that these chemicals effect the quantum workings of the brain. They are similar enough to take the place of serotonin, and yet they must have a different resonance to them. This is why such a similar molecule can so easily dissolve what we commonly call reality. And this also explains the different experiences between such similar molecules like psilocybin, DMT, bufotenine, etc. They each have slightly different resonant frequencies from each other.

I always wonder if that feedback loop might cause the brain to actually hallucinate, or instead cue into things that are normally outside of the ability to perceive. From what I can tell, the universe is formatted as a fractal. So, it makes sense that there could be life forms at the lower level. They are just at a different node in the waves of existence. Just as there may be life forms larger than our universe in a higher plane. It could be, too, that the universe is similar to a quantum computer, and these beings seen using psychedelics are part of the underlying programming. Maybe the particle/wave functions on the subatomic scale are actually sentient and we interact with their minds....

I'll stop throwing out nonsense now! I just love coming up with ideas.

Yes I agree the confluence of mystical/religious knowledge and scientific knowledge has already begun, but I don't think too many people really see it yet. Well, I'd say maybe the gurus and sages are sitting patiently, smiling at the beginnings of an epiphany within the scientific community, but I don't think a majority of scientists see or want to accept it yet. It's funny how much time and energy and money has gone into breaking down the mysteries of the physical world when you see it leading to the exact same place our ancestors wound up with their 'primitive' traditions and techniques. Just as the you can be put down for being overconfident and self-assured in the psychedelic reality, so too can you be put in your place in this one. That's what's happening. But when people do start to vocalize this more and more, there will definitely be a backlash. I was once a staunch atheist. I put my trust in science and scoffed at mysticism and ancient knowledge. "How could they possibly know more than we do?" I'd ask. Well this revelation will certainly upset many things and many people. And there will be a ton of unnecessary and ugly arguing. Christians railing against atheists, feeling so validated and empowered. I can't imagine the scope of it nor do I want to. But ultimately nobody has a clue what is going on or what it all means. Our ideologies are mere speculation about what the world beyond the door is - no more. We're arriving at this doorway as a united humanity. In the future, I hope that with a balanced approach utilizing science and the methods of the shamans, our species can make the first significant steps of progress since our original discovery of the door.

We need real change! Refresh and fix the public perception of these chemicals through a peaceful and well-intetioned movement. It must be one that approaches the topic in more mature way that it was in the 60's. Yes, we know these things are powerful and can be dangerous! However, the distinction needs to be made between an addictive narcotic and an organic compound with radically different psychotropic effects. Even better, these chemicals will gain legitimacy when cast in the light of a theory such as Orch OR. They merely play with the quantum machinery of the brain. Regardless, they are profoundly interesting and should be studied. It also has to be explained that proponents of research understand these chemicals still have the potential to be abused and or used irresponsibly. But as I said in another post, its unjust that irresponsible use of an illegal substance is used to justify its illegality while irresponsible use of a legal substance is used as reason for why the user is irresponsible. This is fundamental to the bias against these substances. People simply do not know the facts. Even if they don't want to try them or want them to be legal, few will dismiss their value in clinical and scientific research when they know enough about them, especially given their promise treating addiction and in understanding schizophrenia.

And I do not think any of it is hallucination. It's information that is coming from somewhere else, but is just as real as the smell of cookies in the oven, sun on your skin, or a stubbed toe. Most of the physical world is invisible to us anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to accept that there is information coming to us that our five senses don't pick up. I mean, the microwave is so commonplace today yet a lot of people have no clue what is making their food heat up. If we can blindly accept something like that, we have to be able to grasp the reality of what's happening during a psychedelic experience with a little bit of effort.

And maybe the Mayans were right. Not that the world is ending of course. That's just the story the media spins because is entertaining and they profit from it. From what I've read, 2012 is the end of the Mayan's long count calendar. It's symbolically the end of one age the the dawn of a new one. Where the cycle starts over. It's fitting. In this new world, inclusive of the quantum realm that entheogens allow us to see, we are as clueless as our ancestors where in the caves of Europe, looking out at the night sky.

What a coincidence! And how cool! I think this is an example of positive exposure (well, from 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/w...layer_detailpage#t=1318s

Watch the whole talk if you want to strengthen your understanding of the topic. I've researched it a ton and it seems to only complicate the more I learn. It might be necessary to rewind a bit to see the context of what he's talking about, but he explains the relevance of the chemicals on that slide to the theory.

I had a thought about this today, from earlier in this thread.

Rider, you said that you believe psychedelics can open you to outside information, to experience or come into contact with something from different dimensions, outside oneself. I do believe that this is a possibility, but I cannot say it's true all the time. I have had very many trips where I come into contact with something I can verifiably say is part of my own psyche. For quite a while I had never seen this, so before such an experience I really believed the visions to be outside myself. I do know sometimes the mind can project its own intentions into the visions, forming true hallucinations.

It makes sense, as our brains basically create reality. They take raw data from the world outside, and form it into a coherent pattern we call reality. This same thing can happen in these other realms, but it's important not to forget that the mind is very powerful. It can very easily create a reality on its own.

The unsettling thought this brings up is the fact that we cannot prove anything. Reality cannot be proven. We must always take our perceptions on face value. There's no way to disprove solipsism to a solipsist.

Now, there have been plenty of times I see or experience things that make it very hard to say such a thing came from myself.

Man, don't the psychedelics make thinking about this stuff so confusing, and yet so utterly fascinating?

Yeah, based on recent scientific theory and personal experience, I think these experiences, especially the world-replacing extremes of a DMT trip, are an influx of information from the quantum world. I don't think the explanation is so black and white though. Firstly, it's not easy to distinguish between quantum information and you're reaction to it. If consciousness is the result of these quantum processes, you actually aren't creating or projecting anything at all anyway- that could just be an illusion. Again though, I don't know how clear the distinction is. It's hard to say what the brain does and doesn't do with help from the quantum world.

I know the sensations you mention. My DMT trip featured personal information in a seemingly non-personal world with non-personal forces interacting with me (beings, communication, induced feelings, etc.) I don't think these differences invalidate the general theory though. The idea of personal and non-personal might just be another illusion or artifact of our limited perspective. So this is why I don't view these experiences as hallucinations in the typical sense. It's just as real as normal wakeful life, being happy, tired, or sad. Just different brain-states on the spectrum. The idea that these visions are just neural static and chaos can't account for their actual incredible coherence. It just doesn't make sense that it's random information and feelings because it doesn't feel that way at all. Perhaps there is some element of randomness or chaos, but it's the type of chaos that generates fractal geometry and order, like this (gotta watch from the marked point to the end): http://www.youtube.com/w...amp;v=DO8yFGbbGmg#t=370s
The first part of the video is also relevant. Just an intro to the topic.

Great thread! a lot resonates

I'm surprised this topic doesn't pop up more often. i've been interested in hameroff and penrose's work on this for a little over a year now and i think its very interesting, but its been difficult to fully wrap my mind around the more complex physics of some of it since i've never been educated in that area

you explained it in a very down to earth and understandable way though, so thanks. i'll have to check out your links when i have more time

btw have you read this book? http://www.amazon.com/In...ychedelics/dp/159477224X

in one chapter they also propose that something involving microtubules and quantum information is behind these psychedelic states of consciousness

Hmm. Might buy that book. Thanks for sharing it! I think it's only a matter of time before the Orch OR theory hits the mainstream. I'm astounded that it hasn't already, but I'm hopeful because it's a very strong argument.

Rider,

I have recently had many thoughts about this subject. I have always approached spirituality from a very scientific point of view so here is my working theory:

I perceive these beings to be what many have considered God or the Gods. In all probability they created us as they were created by beings with even "higher" intelligence. This process is evolutionary in nature as one day maybe we will create beings that we watch over and so on an so forth.

When the Gods created us they gave us a part of themselves which is what we know as consciousness. Consciousness is what I understand to be what flows throughout all life even the Gods themselves. I think it would be more accurate to label this consciousness as God but maybe even consciousness itself was a created thing by something even higher.

My mind tells me that this evolutionary process has to have a beginning but something tells me it could be infinite. At which point my mind begins to melt and I consider checking myself into the insane asylum

There is much more to this theory but that is the gist of it. I believe that with a scientific approach and the proper keys we can understand everything and what we can't understand we will at least understand why we can't understand it.

Stuart is trying to use an anesthetic on the brain in order to test the orch or theory... it's not going to work is it.. why when Penrose says that in order to see a quantum effect on consciousness you would need to see it from a state outside that of the state in which we are prescent. Stuart has done works on psychedelics so is it red tape that he does not use psilocybin as the drug of choice?! It would seem that anesthetics puts the mind in a subdued state rather than the psilocybin that will enhance movements within the microtubules as Penrose suggests in the way the brain will synthetically transcend into the conscious... It's like the effect of caffeine on an ADHD brain... goes to sleep! Seems such a waste to be testing this theory on something that makes the brain sleep.
Thoughts?