I recently experimented with a few different anti-cholinergic drugs out of both curiosity, and exploration of what psycho-actives have to offer. Good or bad.

I experienced 20 seeds of Datura stramonium (atropine and scopolamine)

200mg, 400mg, and 700mg's of Diphenhydramine (all at different times of course:wink

I've come to the conclusion that anti-cholinergic drugs are true hallucinogens compared to other psychedelics. While the effects are most unpleasant to the majority that consume them, the experience is one that will widen your awareness to the possiblities of psycho-active use. While these are toxic in higher doses, and extremely dangerous to use if uninformed, I do not condone anyone to use them for a recreational experience. But they are interesting for visionary purposes, and a bizare experience in general.

In my personal experience (from what I can recall) with Diphenhydramine (benadryl), my dreams became a reality.In the safety of my home and my best friend awake in the other room who I informed of the effects of anti-cholinergics. I dosed and waited for effects without anything noticable for roughly, an hour and a half. Most noticably my limbs were extraordinarily heavy and walking became impossible. As well as staying awake. I fell asleep for about 2 hours and 30 minutes when I woke up to use the bathroom (or so I thought). Mentally I felt normal, as if I was just going to use the bathroom and go back to bed because the experience wasn't all that exciting or worth waiting for. I sat up and tried to stand when I collapsed to the ground. I slowly got up, but I felt like I was made out of sandbags. I slowly walked to my door. Which became impossible, I kept running into the invisible walls. I could clearly see the door in front of me, but a random wall blocked my way. I made my way through the maze, knocking over invisible objects that I could clearly hear, and feel, but not see. I started becoming frustrated because all I wanted to do was pee, and go to bed. My head became sore from crashing it into random objects. I sat on the floor and tried to sleep. I looked at my ceiling which was collapsing on me, covered in spiders and warping into a pit of hell in which I would presumabley entered into. Much after this isn't something I'm able to recall.

My trip sitter said I was holding long, deep and somewhat intellectual conversations with other people who didn't even exist. He also noted that he waited and watched my actions. He said when I was up and walking around I was walking into the closet looking for doorhandles and trying to kill the spiders that frequently appeared to me (I fear spiders intensely.) He had to help me onto my bed because I was starting to hurt myself by walking into objects.

I think the study of anti-cholinergics is extremely interesting because of the true halluncinongenic nature that it holds which is unlike any other psychedelic.

Datura FAQ

http://www.erowid.org/pl.../datura/datura_faq.shtml

Diphenhydramine Information

http://www.erowid.org/ph...ne/diphenhydramine.shtml

What was your experience with Datura? I took up an interest in it a few months ago as it grows all over my stepsister's yard. It makes me nervous for obvious reasons. I would like to know how similar or different it is from other deliriants.

Also,



So, did you experiment with substances other than Datura and diphenhydramine?

I think taking benadryl to get high is silly... and while I don't reccomend Datura or Brugmansia or any of the baneful herbs to anybody... but I do agree...

Deliriant drugs are true hallucinogens compared to other psychedelics.

Datura extremely similar to Diphenhydramine within certain aspects of hallucinations, and totally different within aspects of body load, duration and intensity. On diphenhydramine I typically would see bugs, lots of spiders, people who weren't there. Often times I thought I was in a video game I had recently played. But datura can bring things, like flesh eating toilets, talking lamps, and massive walking cartons of milk to real life.

This is my experience with Datura stramonium, once again from what I can recall. I started out by eating the seeds, and watching a movie at my friends apartment. We got about halfway through the movie, when I began to notice the typical, lingering effects of a anti-cholinergin. Blurred vision, inability to talk normally, something I call goldfish memory (short term alzheimers). The visual hallucinations started occuring about a half hour the baseline effects began. But the hallucinations were a lot more far fetched an unreal than any other deleriant I've done. They were extremely abstract and almost impossible to fathom if not experienced. (Its extremely scary to some because they percieve this as reality, and assume that these, creatures and bizzare things that are happening are physically real.) I (reportedly as well as many others) had the constant illusion that I was smoking a cigarette. I would bring my fingers to my lips and take a nice long pull that felt extremely real, only to bring my hand down to feel as if I've dropped my cigarette on the floor. Which would send me looking for this phantom cigarette. From what I recall I must have dropped at least a whole pack of lit cigarettes on the floor. But in the morning not a single burn hole, or a cigarette butt was too be found. My friend also said that I would act with my fingers as if I was smoking, when there was no cigarette to be found. Even when I stood in front of my mirror in the bathroom, I would see my Marlboro Mild 100 burning in my hand. When in reality there was nothing. Datura was a long, hellish experience that I truely didn't enjoy because it made my body feel as if I was put into a meat grinder.

Also I've only done Datura and Diphenhydramine

I completely agree with you. I don't advise taking benadryl to trip out either. Its a dumb idea and can't really be enjoyed anyways.

Ya it's like that...

I used to smoke Brugmansia and reccomend anybody wanting to try a baneful, to try smoke brugmansia flowers and smorting the pollen. I believe it is the safest of the banefuls as well as effective.

Be careful y'all.

Also a very well point stated. Be extremely careful if you decide to do a deleriant of any kind. The amount of deaths, injuries and arrests reported from Datura use is extremely alarming. If you decide to use, you shouldn't be responsible for yourself or others. Its ABSOLUTELY mandatory to have a trip sitter. If done alone you would pose a major threat to yourself as well as others.

Be careful.

realy dangerous stuff. You lose the ability to make the distintion between what's real and what's not. I enjoyed my datura experiences but when i look back at it, what scares the shit out of me is that i have to admit that i easily could have had serious accidents, i easiliy could have seriously hurt myself if there wouldn't have been sitters around.
Like i said, i enjoyed the stuff. But i have to admit that i was just lucky.
I saw and experienced things that where completely bizarre and insane and it messes you up in such a way that your capability to even question how real these things are, totally vanishes.
The cigarette story sounds familiar. I rolled joints and smoked them and then they where suddenly gone and i started looking for them.
I also had conversations with non-existing people. I even remember having a conversation with a skelleton. Once, the house i was in constantly changed, so i couldn't find the doors. Doorways apeared and dissapeared so the house became like a labyrinth. The strangest experience i have ever had with the stuff was when i was in a house that was flying through the air and making rollercoaster-like manouvres with loopings and such stuff.
And the typical thing is that i never even had the slightest suspicion that these things where not real. I saw and experienced them, and therefore they where real to me without questioning.

And its that exact feeling is what I find so intriguing.

I have had quite a few Datura induced journeys, though I haven't ventured into her world for some time, I feel I have a very good relationship with the spirit of this plant. I have the utmost respect for the plant and will only ever partake of it if I have intent to learn a lesson. One should never EVER enter Datura's realm with the intent of "to get fucked up". She will know your intent and she will kick your ass. I generally make a tea with a mixture of dried Datura stramonium leaves, dried flowers and 10-20 seeds, boiled down to a dark, horribly pungent bitter tea. I drink a cup or two of this tea mid to late in the afternoon, as sometimes it can take a few hours for the effects to manifest. I know I have entered her world when I see the countless spiders and insects running across the floors and walls.
My very first journey with Datura was a very profound and comforting experience, I firmly believe I spoke to the spirit of this plant, and have done so on many other journeys. However, the very first time, after the initial 'insect/arachnid invasion' I felt a very strong spiritual presence, as if something was testing me, watching me very carefully. I felt intimidated at first, but was then relieved to find I had an already lit cigarette in my hand. I smoked of this cigarette, it tasted and felt incredibly real. I then dropped it, looked on the floor to where it had fallen but it was gone. This occured many times, and occurs in every one of my Datura journeys. I believe this is some cosmic joke the Datura spirit likes to play, I believe she gives the user cigarettes to calm them in the experience, but as if to prove some point she then takes it away from you, often causing frustration.
Anyway as I was saying, after some bizarre exploration of my home and countless conversations with friends who would vanish as soon as I stopped paying attention to them, I found myself to be lying on a couch. Now bear with me hear, I must note that (as far as I know) my television was never turned on, in fact it was never even plugged in. But there was some sort of late night quiz show playing (obviously it wasent real, but i remember it so vividly), it was real and as boring as any late night quiz show would be, so i watched intently, too exhausted to walk around anymore. The show came to a point where the host of this show (a woman) was shown close up and was looking directly at the camera but i felt her presence, as if she was staring directly at me, she started talking to me! This woman on the television kept repeating the sentence "Let me help you... let me help you...". So not thinking much of it I spoke back to this television host, I said "you can help me". She then smiled and next thing I know its morning, my eyes cant focus on anything close up and I feel slightly confused.
I now firmly believe that the spirit of Datura took the form of that woman on the TV, because ever since then I have had positive experiences on each Datura journey. She has spoken to me in other forms since then, she was once a blanket that grew cigarettes out of the blanket folds lol!
I also found that while on Datura I can see through my closed eyelids, I think it makes your eyes so light sensitive that you can see right through them, I found that aspect of my trips rather fascinating. I have heard many negative stories of Datura trips going terribly bad, now when I refer to them as positive I do not mean they are fun, they are not fun at all, but rather a very bizarre learning experience. The only thing I despise about this plant is the fact that it dries your mucous membranes and saliva glands to a point where it cannot be quenched, I have never ever felt so dry on anything else.
I reccomend people try this at least once, but only those who wish too see another layer of reality, she is not for recreation seekers, she knows who you are and your intent. She requires respect or she will destroy you, she has been known to kill.
Peace,

These types of substance are incredibly dangerous. Have someone around to look after you, if you realy want to go this far.

I would never do these substances. Very happy with psychedelics. There is too much a 'witchery' aspect to these deliriants that I dont want to deal with. Plus all the long-lasting side effects, dry mouth, blurred vision and so on

The long term effects are the reason I haven't used this substance in a long time, I have no need and don't believe I will need to for months/years to come. I enjoyed my time with it, and feel I have become a better person from the experiences. The experience can be rather dark in imagery and atmosphere, but for me it was never something I regret experiencing.
Peace,

while I normally agree with you, I don't agree with this statement at all
you guys are claiming this in a forum dedicated to the pinnacle of pure hallucinogens. both psilocin and dmt are real psychedelics that are purely hallucinogenic, rather than stupor-inducing deleriants.
I've had my bouts with datura, diphenhydramine/dimenhydrinate, and benztropine. none of them gave any tangible hallucinations like high doses of psilocin. instead they were vague, like on salvia, and had a negative vibe to them.

get yourself some piracetam and choline bitartrate if you plan on messing with these substances. these compounds deplete baseline levels of acetylcholine.

I'm not arguing with you at all when I say this, but I think Coatl had meant hallucinogenic in terms, of seeing real life things.... appearing in random spots, and doing random things. Like being severely dehydrated. Think classical hallucinations, not psychedelic halluncinations.

While psychedelic hallucinations are often more insightful, happy, and life changing. I only like these deleriants for exploration, and to widen my array of awareness. I've seen things on these chemicals I never though possible, while horrifying, I think its only useful for careful exploration. It isn't a recreational, psychedelic drug. Its a trip to hell and back inside a pill bottle/flower/plant.

Trying to decide on whether or not to take these drugs is like asking yourself if you'd be willing to go to hell and back for the pure purpose of exploration.

Honestly, I dont know why people seem to lump salvia along with delieriants like datura. At the right doses and the right setting, salvia is definatily not vague..not at breakthrough doses.I guess I can see why some people have really weird trips and swear it off when they are smoking 40x stuff.. I have always found salvia to be a true psychedelic, just differnt, not a tryptamine. I would never compare it to datura.

well, mescaline isn't a tryptamine, yet it's a true psychedelic. the experience is sharp, and vivid.

I had an experience on 5x salvia that was definitely breakthrough, but the hallucinations were not as sharp as ones on mesc. I was completely disoriented, like on another planet. sure, I'd venture it's psychedelic and hallucinogenic, but so are psychedelics which overload the visual cortex with rich tapestries like DMT or mesc. it's definitely a different sort of psychedelic.

I'm just in disagreement with the premise that psychedelics aren't as much hallucinogens as anticholinergic deleriants. that's completely false

I agree with the latter statement

Thats why I've always called psychedelics, just psychedelics. I'll call deleriants deleriants, and hallucinogens hallucinogens.

With datura stramonium, what dose would be an effective anti-nausea dose without it being hallucinogenic?

Scopolamine is commonly used to fight nausea. The dose used for that is many times smaller than a hallucinogenic dose.

You cannot easily get scopolamine, and for good reason, it is very dangerous. SWIM is interested in its use as an anti-nausea medication only. If one were to take Datura stramonium seeds or leaves, what dose would prevent nausea without being at all psychoactive?

As SWIM understand it, that alkoloid content of datura varies wildly.