I guess this has been discussed before, but here goes:

I would like to ask nexians who have tried both pharmahuasca and ayahuasca at effective doses, how big is the difference in experience between these two? Visuals, body "load", extacy, healing properties, lenght of experience(altough I think this is controllable by MAOI dose in both?), etc.
I have read that with pharma there's less nausea and possibly no vomiting, and that some active compounds are not present(such as MHRB's yuremamine), but how much different is the actual experience.
Of course ayahuasca has long history of use, but I can't help but wonder. If we eliminate the plant material, vomiting and some active compounds(what others are there besides yuremamine that don't show up in pharmahuasca?), how much different will the acual experience be in the end?


And has anyone tried combining MHRB and caapi/rue extract? If yes, how were the effects? I also wonder if this would reduce nausea...


thanks

I suggest you try all combination of extracted harmalas, with extracted spice in salt form and caapi tea, and other admix aya style (chacruna, chaliponga, jurema etc..)
I used to prefer pharamhuasca (extracted rue alcaloids or caapi alcaloids with dmt fumarates) but now I start to prefer ayahuasca with no acid (makes it way more palatable).
But it's true you can do amazing journeys with rue or caapi pure alcaloids and mimosa hostilis tea or chaliponga and cubes for exemple.
It's all good.
You just have to play with different combo and preparation, dosage etc...
I tend not to puke a lot but it depends of preparation of my own life-style.
Pharmahuasca can make one puke if he needs to (like lots of toxins to get rid off).
Good luck and enjoy the oral tryptamine with hamralas !

Why does the DMT have to be in salt form? And how to convert it?

theory goes that salt forms are more easily absorbed.. To be honest though, I had very strong experiences with dmt freebase orally too, but it was harsh on the stomach, so I suggest making it a salt, either with FASA method or simply dissolving it in an acidic juice/tea and drinking it.

As rOm said, I also agree that you should test out different combinations and try for yourself. It's pretty hard to define, also because, unless you are taking aya/pharma every couple of days in the exact same set and setting and nothing else changes in your life except that every 10 or whatever trips you change the dmt/harmala source, then how can you really tell that the differences are because of the different form? I mean, if you take a couple of aya experiences in winter, then you take again some pharma in spring, or if your intentions or expectations are different, or whatever other important variables that can affect, then your trips may be different for other reasons appart from the dmt and harmalas. Even with the exact same product one can have completely different experiences depending on the day IMO.

In any case a couple of differences I do notice: There is a bigger chance of purging with plant material than with extracted alkaloids (though that isnt a rule, Ive purged on pharma and ive had many aya trips without purging, but in general I think there is this tendency, probably due to tannins and so on).

Also, I feel that its easier to misfire with pharma (extracted alkaloids), than it is with aya. I think there is something related to the bioavailability or absorption of the alkaloids that the full plant brew might help... So if you take extracted alkaloids, i suggest either taking the MAOI and the DMT dissolved in juice, or "bombing" it by wrapping in some smoking paper and swallowing with some acidic warm tea. Capsules work the worse IME..

Regarding taking harmalas before or together with DMT, im still not decided on that. Traditionally, ayahuasca is brewed with both components together, but also traditionally it is very common that people re-dose after an hour or two... It might be the dmt in first dose will be partly destroyed by MAO before the MAOI inhibits it all.

You can also try out different combinations and let us know: Harmalas 30 mins before, then dmt, or both together, or half harmalas 30mins before and half together with DMT (which is usually what I go for, just out of pure guessing/intuition). The good thing is you can always redose, even the same day, since no tolerance builds up, in fact the effects just keep increasing the more you take

Another thing is that you have to find your ideal harmala dosage. Some people like it really high on harmalas and low on dmt. I like a decent but not too strong dose on harmalas and a strong dose of DMT.. The thing is, you have to find the strenght of your brew.. So I recommend first trying the harmalas by themselves, find a dose youre comfortable with (for me its the dosage where I definitely feel some effects from harmalas, light-headedness, sensitivity to light, somehow dreamy state, maybe a little groggyness, but not overly dizzy nor very hard to walk), and then next time add your DMT on top of that dose.

Check the sticky in this information subforum (also linked in the FAQ) for some suggested doses. For me, caapi dosage is often around 40g, rue around 3.5g, extracted mixed harmalas around 200mg if pure white or 400mg if darker stuff, 150mg if pure harmaline and 250mg if pure harmine.. Sometimes I like to go a bit higher on harmalas but not always. As for DMT, with pharma im a bit of a rarity, because, as with a small amount of people, I need extremely large amounts of DMT (like 200mg+), but many people are more than happy with 50-70mg, so find your dosage, start low. I still have to experiment with caapi + extracted DMT to see if I also need large doses like that or if whole caapi somehow helps absorption and my doses are more 'normal'. With brewed ayahuasca, I still have to experiment more, because most times I brewed back in SA, it was unknown dosages just eyeballed, the traditional way, but I dont really recommend it. With known good chacruna I think it will be around 50g, but as I said, plant material can vary a lot in quality. With mimosa, the dosage for me would be around 5g, but Ive taken up to 10g of some strong mimosa and that was quite a kick in the ass.. I hear some people taking even higher doses of mimosa but it makes me wonder if their mimosa isnt very bad quality or if their brewing method isnt completely off, because im usually a hardhead and 10g was already too much for me. First timers should take 3g mimosa. I dont like drinking mimosa brews anymore, now rather extracted DMT from mimosa or chacruna as plant source.... But each one has their own preference.

Lastly, I just want to link purges thread which was about the same and I had not answered yet because I knew it would be a long answer like this one.. but now here it is, so.. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=28924

Hope that helped a bit

Yeah, Freebase are converted to salt by the stomach so if you don't want to bother, then don't, some find more nausea with freebase others don't.
You can simply dissolve your dmt freebase in citric acid solution to drink down fast.

Thanks for the response Endless, i know it was partially aimed at my post from last week

Great info guys thanks

I find a full brew with rue/caapi+admixtures has always felt more "full" than pharma somehow...other alkaloids I guess that play a role in whole spectrum teas..

I dont find a properly brewed tea more nauseating though..I have gotten real nauseated from extracted harmalas...as long as a brew is filtered very well and left for a few days to decant it should lessen the discomfort..there is still some as there is with pharma when you take alot.

Another thing I found, is that DMT fumerates feel discusting to ingest for me..and this is a 100% food grade tek. I just do not like eating DMT fumerate..my body does not like it I can tell. A brew with no acids-just spring water that is free from all the sediments feels much cleaner for my body than ingesting fumaric acid. Why that is I have no idea..I have never eaten freebase DMT.

In the end they are obviously very similar, but there is some differences..and you must understand that just as "ayahuasca" can refer to a brew with a wide range of plant admixtures, "pharma" can refer to a mixture of beta carbolines and DMT/tryptamines from many different plant sources or synthetic sources as well and that will give each mix it's own vibe..

With rue I think alot of people here dont use it to its full potential, but that is just my opinion after working with it alot recently. Capping it and eating it etc is not the best way if you want to reduce nausea and have a cleaner, clearer experience and pharma would be much more comfortable..some goes if you chose to eat caapi. With rue I think it is necessary to take the time to learn how to prepare a good brew and properly filter it, and let it sit unreduced in the fridge to decant it..those sediments in both rue and caapi cause alot of the discomfort..mimosa is the same. If you want a clean and clear brew dont just brew that morning and drink the tea later that night..take the time and prepare it properly before hand. There is alot of talk on how to perfect ayahuasca brewing etc, but there is a lack of that sort of approach I think to harmel based brews.

I find that pharma has much less of a "visionary" quality, that is there are a mass of visuals and yet I do not usually get the long story-like meaningful scenarios running in my head. That's what I love about jurema/ayahuasca. I actually get much more of the "visions" from jurema than even ayahuasca. Another way to put it is that the plants do seem "deeper" than pharma.

But then, I get alot out of pharma, I've been doing it alot lately. It's like the smoked DMT themes slowed down and stetched out so that notes can be taken. Another thing is that with pharma I get these really intense thought looping/shattering, endless permutations of the same thought again and again. However, lately I have found that all of that can be "sung down", in pseudo-icaro fashion. Once I discovered that, I found that I can get almost as much out of pharma as aya, the themes are just different.

Another thing is, I for whatever reason find pharma to give a much stronger body-load than aya/anahuasca, with nausea more caused by the state of my mind on the come up than plant oils, negative energy or whatever exactly needing to be purged.

I find the come-up with pharma to be the most trying part of it. I have to purge or sing, or both, before it "levels-off" and becomes manageable. And then, it's niiiiice. Oral Dmt gives me cutesy family type vibes!