As polytrip has brought to our attention, lately we have been having an influx of posts that talk about Consciousness Ascension, Pineal Gland, Other Dimensions and the beings that objectively exist there, etc etc.

This by itself wouldn't be a problem, but there are three aspects which make it very problematic:

The first is when these theories are expoused as The Truth, instead of as a theory or philosophical thought. Nobody here has a patent on Truth, and nobody is in the position to tell others what it is.

This comes together with the second issue, which is preaching and 'holier than thou' attitude from those who bring those New Age theories and consider anybody who is skeptic, questions or points out flaws, as 'closed-minded materialists', or not enlightened enough, or unevolved, or any similar idea.

Our forum has been built on the foundations of critical thinking, of scientific thought in the realms where scientific thought applies, of conscious criticism, of well backed and sustained arguments. This means that ideas presented here are susceptible to being scrutinized, reviewed, questioned. There are other forums, such as the ayahuasca forums or others, where there is more focus on the spiritual side of things, so feel free to go there if you prefer that kind of orientation and posting, but know that here the scientific method is a pilar of this community.

Many of us seem to question traditional religions and dogmas, but lately, often when one questions anything more 'alternative', it is sometimes almost seen as an offense, and the responses are often defensive, or the typical 'one-size-fits-all' argument of 'science doesnt know everything' is used.

If 'science doesnt know everything', then who knows maybe the computer just in front of you might be made by demons and might explode at any second, but nevertheless one does trust it because it works, because it was made with scientific knowledge that is reliable. So its somehow ironic that people choose to ignore science only when its convenient to their own beliefs. How about instead we realize, as all good scientists know, that science is a useful method with a certain range of applications, and that through it, isolating variables, we can find out things we could not otherwise, and we can make use of it. Science does not have monopoly over everything existing, but it certainly is the more reliable voice in many discussions, and hence why we use it.

The fact that science evolves, that knowledge is updated or changed is not an argument against science, but for it, because theories are falsifiable, because data can be reviewed impartially, unlike religious/tradition dogmas which are not passive to change. In other discussions, maybe through science we cannot directly test something, the discussion might be beyond scientific knowledge, at least temporarily, and this is important to know too, to accept it, to know when we can speculate and theorize beyond what we know. But of course, critical thinking still applies, and being conscious (and explicit) of the difference between an opinion and a fact, is essential.

I think its VERY important that we also notice the third issue at hand: The response from those who feel opposed to the ideas presented, the ones who are 'skeptic' or critical. Now, in the same way that I mentioned the foundations of our community, another very important aspect of our community is being respectful, communicating in a conscious way, not just venting our emotions and using strong words.

If one comes talking about a new age theory you dont agree with, dont say its "crap", explain why you think its wrong, show the arguments, point to peer-reviewed or trustable sources, dissect the misunderstandings and misleading affirmations. Saying something is "bullshit" or similar will just further degenerate the atmosphere of the nexus, will polarize the debate, and does not add anything constructive. Not only that, but this kind of response is equally against our stated attitude, and hence equally unwanted in this forum.


I hope we can all realize that different people will have different philosophical/existential orientations, but we must respect the different points of view, and respectfully state why we think one thing or another and give our arguments for it. Let us work together, making our voices as complementary and not mutually exclusive. Let us learn, evolve, accept when we're wrong, concede to other arguments, be open to change and work for the community, and not just for ourselves and our previously established ideas and emotions.

Amen, endlessness. I will certainly take all of this into consideration. I will right away admit, so everyone can see, that I have not been totally free of sins in these discussions either. As many may have noticed, I am one of those "skeptics" and "hard assed materialists". I can come off as too harsh, or sometimes even come off without presenting arguments (though I usually do, at least I hope I do ). I will try to improve on this in the future.

Thanks, endlessness.

Thank you endlessness.

Spirituality and science are two ways in which we build the view we see out our peepers. They are great and all, everybody loves an explanation, but taking this to extremes is dangerously close to taking oneself too seriously. You don't want to be that guy or gal. The world is a hilarious mystery, its beautiful and joyous no matter what your view on science vs spirituality. Not knowing is much more fun than knowing. Knowing is cold and unchanging. Not knowing is an endless dance of possibilities.

Great post endlessness!

As endlessness points out, this forum uses the scientific method to evolve and to spread awareness about DMT. I hope that people understand that without the scientific approach we would for example not have extraction teks!

For non-scientific talk we have the Through the Looking-Glass subforum. So please use that subforum if you have any non-scientific ideas!



Kind regards,

The Traveler

Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars — mere globs of gas atoms. Nothing is "mere". I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination — stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern — of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?

-Dick Feynman

This was needed.. I too will use this perspective to help this forum... thank endless<3

The way I see it, knowing and not knowing is a state of mind, that can be mistaken as truths. The real creator of a cold unchanging state is a closed mind, which can come about by an ego that knows. Knowing in itself isn't bad.

Thank you for those beautiful words proto-pax....great post!

On to the original post, you have changed my outlook some with this post endlessness. I have always looked at science as grasping at straws. The scientific understandings are fallible and subject to change, it is just the ego of the scientists that can be cold and unchanging, and vice versa. Sometimes I do see an unwillingness to accept anything paranormal, and spirituality has an unwillingness to accept anything measured. The only real problem I can see about this is if these two thing influence each other, but continue to ignore each other it can inhibit discovery.

I think the meat of what I'm saying, is spirituality should be a branch of science.

Thank you for the kind words. I agree with you entirely!

This is a great post, endlessness. I have been browsing this topics, but refrained from commenting, as I don't feel I have a confident stance on either side. Some arguments did seem polarized, but each post still had it's legitimate points. I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant, as I too have made some polarized and non-intelligible posts. But if when we get past it, the only thing to do is...


Live&Learn <3

Thank you endlessness all very well put.

It was certainly coming overdue for this.
This site is the site, for all information and ideas, to be shared with one another, and for someone to consider another's idea as crap, then that simply makes them close minded, not willing to take in diverse ideas into there spectrum of thought.

I could say without some of my friends, who had given me, what i had first believed to be some of the most far fetched ideas, but i have held onto them whether they seem, real or not to my standards, and they have helped mold me the person i am, and i am still young, so i still have a lot to learn, and i know i always will.


This may not pertain to the thread, But people are always saying life is short, i dont think so i think life is one of the longest processes we live.

Amen to that!

I don't really think that was his primary point.

Tangentially, yes, we should be mutually respectful - but I believe the point here is that this isn't the place for unfounded new age musings or subjective personal experiences to be presented as objective truths.

Like it or don't; it's the rules of the house. Let's respect our host and his wishes.

Well said , thank you .

As someone with strong spiritual views I also agree with this.

If you can't back up claims of psychic abilities then quit claiming you have them.
It sounds retarded. Like little kids talking about their super powers.
And further more it actually casts the rest of us with spiritual views in
a bad light to be honest. I'm not saying there is or is not psychic abilities.
What I am saying is that there hasn't been a shred of real evidence that
could be backed up in a peer review journal. Unless nexians here are willing
to subject themselves to this level of peer reviewed scrutiny then please quite
acting as though you have some magical powers that the rest of us don't have.

There are plenty of benefits to meditation and spiritual living that don't require
"tall-tells" and fantasies. Again I'm not saying it's not possible. Shit I've had one experience
with shrooms and a psychic event that seemed very real...but I can't repeat it. I can't control it.
I don't even know if I believe it. That's being real about it. Unless you can control it and prove it
the only rational thing to do is to question it.

Oh yeah and all the hollow attacks on science are just pathetic.
Just because a person takes a few science classes or has science friends
does not give them the right to criticizes an entire field that they
obviously have very limited knowledge about.

There is more to being a professional scientist than knowing the scientific method. Peer review is
a bitch. You think it's hard arguing your point on the nexus well try to publish
a ground breaking paper in a new area. It takes quite a while to get through the process and you have to
convince top minds in the field that you are right...and often times that they are wrong.


Point blank. Science Rocks.

Peace

i lol'd

Indeed integrity is key... Thank you for this thread.

Science is ignited through the mystery. ♥


Much Peace and Compassion

Aye endlessness,
Tis a good thing that this has come about. I thought that this was why there is are Philosophy and Through the Looking Glass forums but I guess they aren't being utilized as much as they should. Let us try to do as Thomas Aguiles says and try to forward and reconcile the three sisters of Religion, Philosophy and Science in stead of having them fight among themselves and in turn fight among ourselves. There may come a time when science can actually prove some "spiritual truths" as it were, but until then I agree that science is the overall best way to go when it comes to addressing these sort of things. Lets all get together and watch Bill Nye Furthermore, where might theoretical physics fall in to play here?

Here Here for Bill Nye the Science Guy!

Also theoretical physics is science. Those guy's aren't making claims without anything backing it up.
They use lots of math and the peer review process.