Question for ya:

Instead of evapping into a tincture.. could SWIM chuck in some herbies and make a quicker changa? I think this was mentioned somewhere but I dont know..

Would probably work.

Can't say anything about the specifics but if the water isn't evaporated at over <70C then the changa will taste VERY vinegary.

Yea, house did this, as did a couple other people to make solventless changa, they all said it worked like a charm. House said it was the best changa he'd ever made. He basically doubled boiled till the vinegar smell was gone and he had a jar of nice gooey dmt fb into which he dumped a bunch of herbs and stirred till they absorbed all the fullrange goodness.

This is the greatest tek, thanks. I was wondering, and got an idea...... could a manske like tek be performed to the vinegar in this case? I mean for the last stage of the tek, when you have your dmt saturated vinegar. Instead of evapping it, maybe you could do a Manske at this point.

Some background, in case anyone doesnt' know..... in the Manske tek, you get hot syrian rue extract in a vinegar base, saturate the solution with rock salt, cool it in the fridge overnight, and harmaline/harmine crystals precipitate on the bottom of the jar. Could the same be done with the dmt saturated vinegar?

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask, for the first step in this tek, when you add boiling water to mimosa and vinegar, do you boil it for a period of time, or just add the boiling water and let it sit at room temperature? Thanks.

unlikely, the reason manske works for harmalas is that adding salt makes the water more polar so the moderately soluble harmalas are precipitated as it cools and the mix gets too polar to hold the harmalas.

Since DMT salts are very water soluble it is unlikely. Even freebase jungle spice and n-oxide are slightly soluble in water and the salts are much much more.

Welcome to give it a try, it could work. Though it is relatively easy to evaporate and it it extremely pure if the tincture is made quickly. Though like anything it takes a bit of practice to getting good at working with small amounts of liquids. 1ml and 5ml droppers are extremely useful.

Cheers

The polarity (or more correctly, the ionic strength) of a solution is not a function of temperature (except to the extent that some salts become insoluble at certain temps). So really, the ionic strength in a Manske decreases as the temperature drops and harmala hydrochloride salts precipitate.

The key to the Manske is that the dissolved NaCl converts the water-soluble harmala acetates to hydrochloride salts, which are fairly insoluble in aqueous solutions of NaCl.

But to the point, it's still unlikely this would work for DMT, as (as far as I know) DMT doesn't share these particular properties with the harmaloids.

my mistake manske was rather unclear in the tek stating "insoluble in cold sodium chloride solutions" seems that the information that I looked up lead me to an incorrect conclusion

Thanks for clearing it up.

Wow, thank you for writing this up q21q21, just what I was hoping for.

q21q21, wouldn't the DMT acetate tincture spoil? What is the pH of those tinctures?

"There is a disagreement over the shelf life of vinegar based tinctures. Some say they only last 6-8 months. However, Rosemary Gladstar states that when she stores them in a cool dark place, they last 2-4 years. Cascade Anderson Geller, a botanical medicine teacher, claims that they last indefinitely if 100% vinegar is used." (Gladstar, 1993, pp.65-66). "

This is also talking about tinctures made by directly infusing herbs, not pure extracted products.
Can't say anything for sure. But SWIM's not going to worry about it until he sees floaties in his tinctures or they smell funny which he doesn't anticipate happening soon.

Can you point me towards those statistics? You thank amor_fati for this step I believe, do you remember where you read that?

damiana

SWIM did 4 trial runs for his first limeteks.

SWIM is very interested in the exact timing of the reactions as would be clearly deduced by reading his tek. So he did pulls using naptha every 2-3 hours for 2 of them and literally got no measurable product until 1.5 days when finally the naptha got some product.

In total he got about .6% the first time with lime STB
The second time he got about .85% using naptha.
It was also quite a bit more yellow than using the A/B method.

The 3rd and 4th were done with limonene and gave very similar results. On the 4th he didn't even bother adding the solvent till 48 hours had past.

During the 4th trial SWIM read amor-fati's then brand-new tek and was suprised by the lack of "wait 48 hours"
He then tried simply adding some hot vinegar for the first step in a tiny 30g batch and was SHOCKED when in the span of 3.5 hours he had .75% and finally .93 after the last pull.

A few question for you :

when salting (in tek 1), you wait the limonene settle until transparent (is it a matter of time ?) or something else ?

also, you could add a filtrating step to your tek, coz there's none and SWIM is feeling that the bark hold much more limonene than what was just going throug the funnel + cotton filter...

I am interested in substituting diluted phosphoric acid for Vinegar to proceed with the salting out step in order to produce Phosphate or what have you, instead of acetate.

Would this be feasible, and if so, how would one determine the correct concentration, if starting out with 10%, as sold from beer making supply shops?

Thanks for your consideration...

I am also curious about taking freebase cappi harmalas and re-salting them with Phosphoric instead or vinegar.

honestly, no idea. Never used it but the smell of vinegar never bothers SWIM so he can't see himself trying it in the future.

If you would give it a try then that would be great.

Just dissolve as much freebase as you can in 1ml or .5ml of phosphoric acid and see if it can be heated until it is freebase again. If it dissolve in naptha then bingo (assuming DMT phosphate is not naptha soluble)

My understanding of Phosphoric Acid is that it doesn't evaporate, hence, it could be a good way to produce a very stable salt for pharma.

Also, it seems that there is a little mystic surrounding phosphoric preparations that apparently produce very strong effects with less materials.

This is information originating from cold soak Ayahuasca preparations.

One idea is that the Phosphoric is more efficient at extracting.

Another, possibly more feasible-- or not-- idea, is that the Phosphate salts are more absorbable.

This is the question that I am drawn too.

However, more than likely, DMT phosphate is just as sticky, hydroscopic, and what have you, as any of the DMT salts.

But anyway, too match acetic acid's, as in Vinegar's strength at store bought 5% or whatever,
I'm trying to figure out how much 10% Phosphoric Acid to diluter water with.

So far the only gauge I can come up with, being a newb, is to try to use PH.

So for example if Vinegar is 2.5, than how many drops 10% Phosphoric Acid to water, to match that PH?

Really anything I say would just be speculation when it comes to phosphoric acid. An online PH calculator showed that .04% phosphoric acid is pH 2.5...

SWIM's no chemist he just tries things mostly things he's read about and if they work they go in his tek.

One thing that he knows is that the acetate tincture he's had has kept for 2 months with NO reduction of quality, no floaties. Really it is exactly like the first day he made it.

Vinegar extractions straight from herbs, with all the chlorophyll and junk dissolved as well are said to keep for 6 months to 4 years. A purified product like DMT which is stable in it's freebase state for LONG periods would likely keep for a LONG time. If secondary tinctures are frozen then no oxygen (if it is full) would reach the product and SWIM would assume that would even further extend it's life.

Long story short: When SWIM's tincture stops working he'll post about it. Until then it will sit in his room peacefully when it is not being called upon.

IF then 1 drop is 1/20 ml, and one's Phosphoric Acid is 10%, then I am trying to figure out the calculation, to achieve .04%. I think it would be 1 drop per ml to achieve a PH similar to vinegar. But for the purposes of salting out, I guess there are other factors obviously, besides Ph which determine the movement into the acidic solution. And then in the case of Phosphoric there is the issue of how much left in the evaporate, that is safe to consume.