hummus wrote:
..No..
this was one of the main points i made previously against the ergot theory of the Kykeon...i know of no such bioassay..even by the original proponents of the ergot theory (who i assume didn't have enough faith in the theory to actually test it)

except, of course, well known ergot poisoning, which includes
painful seizures and spasms, diarrhea, paresthesias, itching, mania, headaches, nausea and vomiting, and gangrene..

St. Anthony's Fire..
i don't think small doses are much fun either..
.

Good point. There's also a report by a Bluelighter who claims to have done it. I'll see if I can find it later.

Definitely amazing, but I don't know if I completely believe it. I don't deny the possibility, but I'm more inclined to disbelief when there is no "real proof". I'd love to hear more about this - until then I'm undecided/disbelief on it.

The results with the mentioned ingestion of ergonovine and methylergonovine, respectively, were not exactly impressive and, in other words, not at all confirmative of the ergot of barley hypothesis considering they were purported to assess it. Jeremy Bigwood, Jonathan Ott, Catherine Thompson and Patricia Neely in August 1978 repeated Hofmann’s experiment with higher doses: from 3.0 to 10.0 mg of ergonovine maleate (Bigwood & al., 1979). The intoxication at 3.0 mg produced very mild visual alterations, lassitude and mild leg cramps. The effects tapered off in seven hours. At 5.0 mg, lassitude and cramps were more pronounced. The psychic effects were also more intense, particularly eidetic phenomena, but they were still mild, while the somatic effects were quite strong. Only at 10.0 mg were visual effects comparable to a threshold dose of LSD or psilocybin, but the physical effects (cramping) were already painful and debilitating. The experimenters were also in a kind of dreamy state, as the natural psychoactive ergoline alkaloids, apart from LSD, show a pronounced narcotic component.

Quote from "Solid substrate mediated changes in ergot alkaloid spectra in solid state fermentation system" (Hernandez, 1992)

Wheat or rye grains were cut into 3 pieces and moistened with distilled water to 50% moisture level for autoclaving at 121 C for 15 min. The lumps formed were broken to separate the grain particles for drying at 60 C for about 24 h. The grains thus processed can be stored upto 6 months without any contamination.

Liquid nutrient' medium which was used for moistening the processed grains or impregnating rocessed sugar cane pith bagasse contained (g*l-I ): ammonium oxalate 9.6, urea 1.73, KH2P04 0.625, MgSO4 * 7 H20 O.O25,ZnSO4 * 7 H20 0.01, and NH4OH to raise the pH to 5.2

The medium was sterilized at 121 C for 20 min and inoculated with spores. Wheat or rye grains (40 g) were mixed with 60 ml of the inoculated liquid medium to get 60% moisture in the moist solid medium.

60 g moist medium was charged in static column fermenter of size 20 cm length x 4 cm diameter. The columns were aerated at a rate of 4 1 humidified airh-l per column and the fermentation was carried out at 26 C for 10 days

...

In contrast to the nearly equal production of total alkaloids by Claviceps purpurea 1029c on three different solid substrates in SSF system, the spectra of alkaloids produced on these substrates differed significantly (Table 1). For example, ergonovine was the major alkaloid formed and accounted for 93.91% of the total alkaloids in the wheat grain medium. The concentrations of ergotamine and lysergic acid derivatives, in this case, were >0.5% while that of lysergol was 5.18% of the total alkaloids formed. In contrast, lysergic acid derivatives and ergonovine together accounted for 98.78% of total alkaloids formed in rye grain medium, their ratio being 1:0.48 (Table 1). Lysergol accounted for 1.14% of total alkaloids while ergotamine was present in traces in the rye grain
medium.

http://horizon.documenta..._6/b_fdi_33-34/39188.pdf

Maybe they just made themselves some grain spawn with C. purpurea sclerotia as the inoculant, and then just made a brew out of that and called it the kykeon. Ergometrine has a high activity level with similar effects to LSD at the 1-10mg level. Much more psychedelic than Lysergic acid amide. I've posited that it is the main psychedelic in MG seeds as well. From that data there would be a full dose of ergonovine (~3-4mg) in every dry gram of wheat seeds.

Crazy eh? That would make a much simpler and more concise explanation for the kykeon than any other I've heard to date.

What effect would electrolysis have on say a mix of ergot alkaloids mixed in an electrolyte solution in a battery drawing current.

The effective dose of lysergic acid amide is 1to 2mg by oral application. I decided therefore to test in a self-experiment a corresponding dose of ergonovine:

1 April 1976

12.20h: 2.0mg ergonovine hydrogenmaleinate, containing 1.5mg ergonovine base, ingested in a glass of water.
13.00h: slight nausea, same effect as I have experienced always in my lsd or psilocybin experiments. Tired, need to lie down. With eyes closed colored figures.
13.30h: the trees in the nearby forest seem to live, their branches moving in a threatening way.
14.30h: strong desire to dream, unable to do systematic work, with eyes closed or open afflicted by mollusk-like forms and feelings.
16.00h: motives and colors have become clearer, but bearing still some hidden dangers.
17.00h: after a short sleep I awoke by a kind of inner explosion of all the senses.
18.00h: an unexpected visit forced me to become active, but during the whole evening I lived more in an inner than in the outer world.
22.00h: all effects worn off, normal feeling.

What suitable kinds of ergot were accessible to the ancient Greeks? No rye grew there, but wheat and barley did and Claviceps purpurea flourishes on both. We analyzed ergot of wheat and ergot of barley in our laboratory and they were found to contain basically the same alkaloids as ergot of rye, viz. alkaloids of the ergotamine and ergotoxine group, ergonovine, and sometimes also traces of lysergic acid amide. As I said before, ergonovine and lysergic acid amide, both psychoactive, are soluble in water whereas the other alkaloids are not. As we all know, ergot differs in its chemical constituents according to its host grass and according to geography. We have no way to tell what the chemistry was of the ergot of barley or wheat raised on the Rarian plain in the 2nd millennium b.c. But it is certainly not pulling a long bow to assume that the barley grown there was host to an ergot containing, perhaps among others, the soluble hallucinogenic alkaloids.

The most plausible i have seen is Psilocybe mushrooms . They do the job and are found in masses with next to no work or effort

Is there any evidence that the greeks new how to cultivate mushrooms ? Sterile techniques ? Special labs where they could analyse things and find their ingredients ?

That they could tell the difference between Claviceps purpurea and Claviceps paspali

Why is it so hard to acept the obvious ? Why do we insist on complicating things with speculation about the findings of modern chemistry that the greeks didnt have acsess to ?