Well AKL I would surmise that you've unknowingly answered your question. The DMT molecule is in fact a physical object, anyone who's extracted and/or used it can testify to that much.

Or were you referring to it's effects on human beings?

If in fact you were then I don't think you can find any solid answer from any one person here seeing as we each have our own perspectives.

For some it may be spiritual, for others not at all, and for still others maybe it is a bit of both

It's just a matter of opinion anyway right?

तत् त्वम् असि

This was actually hypothetical as we do not know for sure if it is or not produced during sleep.
I'm interested what sources you use for you to 'know this is completely a myth', or is it still unknown and hypothetical?


It seems to be the case that (like truth claims about religion)' some people seem to be picking and choosing the reality of their experiences. Like, if you see Elves and aliens, well that was just a crazy ass trip. But if you speak to entities... Oh..that was spiritual (as in actually communicating with the supernatural). It's about as consistent as one religious claim over the other, they can't be all right, but they can be all wrong.

Having said all this, my belief stands that, DMT obviously causes profound experiences in consciousness. For those that refer to that kind of experience as spiritual, then my answer is yes. But I think if you actually believe that you are communicating with supernatural entities in different dimensions, probably just wishful thinking


Ngo mh sik go man a ma

Both, for one cannot divide the subject from the object in terms of experience. One entails the other.

Despite individually held perspectives this thread has shown a lot of shared beliefs of various sorts, so we both individually and collectively maintain perspectives.

Could be.

I think it is both. Sacred just means to hold in high reverence and regard. I would hope anything you feel is spiritual would also be sacred to you. I see DMT as a very spiritual journey and hold both the chemical and journey in high reverence, or consider them sacred. I consider DMT to be spiritually sacred, i guess you could say.

*Note: i do not accept the definition of sacred to mean involved with a god or the gods as i have a very different definition of god than what modern convention uses the word for. To me Sacred means to hold in the highest regard or give the highest reverence.

I have not yet experianced a compleate breakthrough on mimosa DMT..
[partly because its imposible to get these days]...

But i can coment on .[Salvia Divinorum].. and it can be ..[very spiritual].. but a spiritual experiance doesnt have to be fun..it has to be truth..

A Salvia experiance can take one into the world of past generations or into the future as well..similar to the way cognative dreams can..

The question is ..are you after fun/..or after truth?

Dmt is an awesome ride ..and can be life changing..and i guess any time one goes inward.. [weather it be from .. ..meditation ..yoga.. ..phycoactive drugs or .....
[being struck by lightning]..... the experiance can be spiritual..
It deals with doors of perception..
my two cents..

Is DMT sacred and/or spiritual in nature? Well I don't know but according to the same dictionary i was wondering what you guys think of oxygen as being sacred and/or spiritual in nature?

Sacred to us yes. Because it is the life that we breathe. I may not worship it but it is sacred to me for if i do not get my oxygen my bodily organs stop functioning and my conscious presence in the world faces the flipside of the coin of life what is commonly referred to by humans as "death". Oxygen might be spiritual regardless of how we view it though, whether or not it is sacred to me or if my life depends on it makes no difference to it's emergent spiritual qualities.

That is if Oxygen IS spiritual? It is a genuine question in my mind. Is oxygen spiritual? You know, despite the fact that all life that we know of revolved around weaving threads with Oxygen. Like the start of the chain Glucose. C6H12O6. Complex photosynthesis goes on here that i do not understand to produce this magical chemical called Glucose.

My belief is that all Atoms have emergent spiritual qualities.

So in my world Oxygen is spiriitual but the question here is if it is Sacred? Does it have properties that are sacred in relationship to me? Take any chemical formula in my body, for example: Ribose. C5H10O5. There's 5 Os in there.
Big deal? What differs this O in relationship to the others? Nothing, really? except for it's atomic weight. The 'Oxygen' state is only a temporarily state, the atom can transmute to any other atom given the right leverage.

But there's a status quo revolving Oxygen. It is the dominant chemical on earth. All life depends on it. It is abundant but it is crucial. Lose our oxygen and we lose everything. Everyone knows that the planet's CO2 level is rising. One tends to think that this means Oxygen level is decreasing but I think that might be wrong. Oxygen is not decreasing. In fact, it might be steadily increasing for all I know, it is just that there is so much CO2 in relationship to that Oxygen that if you where to film the process you would see a massive blob of CO2 and oxygen decreasing. But that is not the case I think, it is just that the CO2 is increasing so much that it is a true optical illusion here and our thirdeyeballs see Oxygen depleting

But what makes this O in C5H10O5 so special? Virtually nothing, for it is an atom just like any other atom. But Oxygen returns to us as a persistent possibility. A higher Ego, to invent a new term here.

The Oxygen is the enity we meet on DMT?


Goddammit, all i wanted to post in this thread where these words:

"Is Oxygen spiritual?"

Universe Cannon - can you translate - my sandscrit is lame...

What is the working definition of Sacred - for the discussion ?

Generally it is any object that this treated with reverence....

so it is sacred if you respect it....

Given it's impact on spiritual beliefs, spice is a spiritual thingy...
More than symbol, possesses it's own power, possibly not only
due to it's role in our neurochemistry. Maybe it has that rolea
across the biosphere ?


But is it sacred still, even if no one knew or respected it ?

Here's my opinion.

The experience brought about by DMT, especially the unshakeable types, are insofar as sacred and/or spiritual as brushing your teeth in the morning, the birds chirping, the earth orbiting the sun, or even us talking on here.

I hope most here see what im saying above and understand what im getting at. Im not limiting 'sacredness' or 'spirituality' to the DMT experience, but the whole of life.

In the end, any concepts we ascribe, even the words 'spiritual' or 'sacred', are very limited in their approach. Im sure most here know what im saying.

<3 tat

Well, I'm back with a new view on things as I've spent the better part of the day tripping my a$$ off.

The entire reason I wanted to try DMT is because it had the nickname "the spirit molecule".

So far I haven't had many "spiritual" trips, they've mostly just been weird, slightly uncomfortable, and fun.

Today however, after a few hours of smoking and tripping pretty hard, I asked my DMT to "show me something" before I started smoking it. Wow, big change in what happened to me today which I'll delve into later in a post trip report.

I learned, for myself anyway, that I am not that spiritual, that's not to say that DMT isn't spiritual, because believe me, DMT will give you just about ANYTHING you ask for... today has been basically one long trip.

Part of my trips today were spiritual, and other parts were just completely fun. but I also had a fun/spiritual trip today as well.

In conclusion I've found that DMT is BOTH spiritual AND a recreational drug. For me it all depends on what I ASK my DMT to show me.

So far, if I ask it for "the pretties" I get a good show and some laughs. If I ask for something more spiritual then I get some deep conversation with a being that lives in my head and good visuals on top of it all.

I am so glad this thread is still vital and topical. In my small experiences, DMT is a direct conduit and a mind-shifting vortexial vacuum, drawing the human soul into higher and still higher frequencies of mind, ascending into the Heavenly light of the purely spiritual realms.

As most of what transpires under it's Sacred influence is beyond the parameters of linguistics... suffice it to say, this molecule encapsulates lifetimes of exploration and conscious growth, in all but a mere 15-20 minutes. Makes my heart smile a mile wide! Much love to all of you good people.

Relevant in a lot of ways

Well it looks like I have stumbled onto an old thread due to RS bumping it. Thanks bud.

An old topic we have debated ad naseum. But still, it is rather interesting. So...

It seems that most of the requisite semantic wrangling has already been done, but I think I will go ahead and further simplify this...

1st off, the thread seems to have focused on spiritual at first and only brought in the concept of sacred towards the end. IMO, spiritual (defined "of or relating to the spirit" is a vague term. Spirit tends to be defined "the non-physical aspect of a person or thing." (true as much of team spirit as the soul... or just consciousness)

In this light, I am fairly sure that the beings and vistas revealed by DMT are not physical. Even if you believe that they are explainable via neurons and synapses, our subjective experiences are clearly of something not composed of atoms on the Earth. If you strip away any valuation or religious content (sorry AKL) from the idea of non-physical consciousness, and realms that are "other" to the Earth... I would have to say Hyperspace and its denizens would fit the bill of spiritual.

Of course, there is no way to prove that there is a physical universe, or any objective material reality. Cogito Ergo Sum only leaves us as consciousness (a spiritual phenomenon as near as we can tell) having a material seeming experience. In this context... as with the broader primacy of consciousness conception... everything in existence would be spiritual.

A side question here... is whether the substance DMT has its own spirit. Many native traditions choose to view plants (esp. power plants) as having a unique consciousness and spirit. Mescalito, for instance, being the personality behind all mescaline cacti. With AYA, there is certainly a sense that Mama Aya is present, and a big part of the experience. With spice, this is absent IMHO. Not that there is any lack of "spirits" (non-physical beings) that you can run into in Hyperspace (referred to by many indigenous people as the spirit world).

At any rate, I think Herr Strassman's denotation of DMT as the Spirit Molecule is fine.

Sacred, on the other hand... is another ball of wax. The root of the word sacred arises in the setting apart. To sanctify (literally to set apart) is to make sacred. In practice, it implies that some things, places and experiences are more holy than others. This is that "othering" AKL was talking about.

This is tricky. It is interesting to note that many indigenous cultures had no word for sacred, divine, holy or sanctify when the western missionaries showed up. They really could not understand the division obsessed western mind at all. When pressed to understand sacred and holy, they universally would exclaim "Isn't everything that?"

And I also concur with that. If anything is sacred... everything is. At least to someone who views nature and the entire cosmos as divine. As Universecannon said (in Sanskrit) Tat Vam Asi (basically That Thou Art). Meaning that drawing any line (a prerequisite for the term sacred) is pointless. It is all one... and all you. On that level the concept of sacred is meaningless, as shown by the lack of such a word in many cultures.

Nonetheless, I am a westerner, and used to drawing lines (however fine)... and I recognize that DMT and its fellow tryptamines are almost uniquely powerful in their ability to propel us to this spiritual space we call hyper. Certainly, a bowl of spice is not equal to an apple core... or a camel light. (in terms of its usefulness)

Furthermore, Hyperspace itself is very much an "other" type of experience. It may be contiguous and intimately connected to our normal illusory reality... but it is certainly an "othering" experience to see this world fall away, and be transported there. Very few things convey such a dramatic sense of other. Therefore...

I am going to have to say that DMT is both spiritual and sacred. I threw in a caveat, though... I said "Yes, unless you intend it not to be."

This is because our free will and power of choice... especially when it comes to labeling and conceiving of things... is supreme. Therefore, if you decide you don't want to call DMT sacred or spiritual, it isn't... for you. This is mostly a characteristic of all language being subjective in its application.

You may not be able to will a DMT trip to be mundane and purely physical... but you can certainly choose to define sacred and spiritual in a way that precludes the DMT experience... or you can just forget 99% of what happens to you on the other side. Either way, you can certainly choose to make the experience not sacred or spiritual... retroactively, if nothing else.

Both.