^yes I agree 100% and that is what completely changed my mind on the whole idea that you are somehow saving the planet by not procreating. I just dont buy it anymore becasue you arent contributing much either by just not having kids. We need more open minds and receptive hearts, the lack there of is where the real problems lie in my opinion.

My daughter was born when I was sixteen, and it was certainly a rough ride. It did change me drastically. I dropped out of school to work full time, because I needed to provide for my little girl. I hated money (and still hate it) but I had to become somewhat more materialistic simply for survivals sake. And the fact that I didn't want my daughter to grow up seeing her parents on welfare, thinking we were poor or lazy. I had issues with depression even before she was born, and after, hell yes. I didn't like the world my daughter was being exposed to, and it seemed like I didn't have very much control over it. I had to send her to school, babysitters, daycare, my in-laws *cringe*, just so that we could eke out a living.

I didn't end up where I thought I would. I didn't go to college, or become what I thought I would. But I have very little regrets. I think that a child was what I needed at that point. Before she was born, I was almost completely out of control. Drug addicted and depressed. Violent and self destructive. Seeing her little face changed me, for the better. It was hard as hell to get to where I am now, but I really appreciate her (as I hope she does me). She's almost twelve years old now, and I wouldn't trade anything for the relationship we now have. When she was younger I may not have been the world's best father, but I was there, loving her and providing, protecting her and doing my best to instill some values in her. I think I have succeeded to a large extent, and it makes me immensely happy to see the beautiful young woman she is growing into. Happy, but also scared She's already beating the boys off with a stick.

This is absolutely true. If you ever regret having a child, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Our children end up being reflections of ourselves, showing us the good and the bad.

This is a subject that I find myself dancing around a lot lately. Not knowing what to say, or what not to say. Knowing that I should educate my daughter about these things, but not really knowing the best way to go about it. Thanks for the link.

Dioxippus, that's a really touching story! There's a lot they talk about I would never have considered, like the developmental point where kids are really afraid of breaking the rules and have their DARE officer at school...

^ thats is one of the many reasons I think I wouldnt be able to send my kids to public school. I dont think it is the business of the goevernment to pollute any kids mind with that kind of bullshit. The only problem there is noone wants they're kids to become some type of social recluse either..I think I remember Mckenna talking about this same problem he had wondering about what to do with his kids. I would find some way to home school my kids but for sure make certain that they had a group of other children around them as well to interact with on a regular basis. I will be working for myself mostly from home by the time I ever have kids so that I can do that for them and be there to teach them.

Raising two girls has been the most rewarding experience of my life. Properly integrated, [edit: the parenthood experience] will teach you much about yourself and life itself.

You do end up with a unique perspective on issues like public education. Which I feel are basically programming the human race - in quite an artificial and factory-like manner. For some shocking perspective check out "Dumbing Us Down".

On the sustainability issue: If on average and totally voluntarily, each couple had a single child, world population would decrease to 1 billion in 100 years. [Jim Merkel - Radical Simplicity]. Next life, maybe I'll choose to have just one - but would not forgo the blessing it has been.

I don't think i'll ever want to have kids. Having kids is something you should realy, realy, realy want from the bottom of your heart. You have to go all the way once you have them, you cannot choose to have only the fun parts of it.

I think that if you don't feel having kids is a calling, you shouldn't even consider having them.

at this point, I observe zero pop. growth.
this just isn't the right time to have a kid.
times are tough, and our gov't has its priorities all wrong.

Children are a trip more hard, more fun and more rewarding trip than any of our current psychedelics could ever provide.

It's only for the truly hardcore psychonauts.

Pretty much sums up how me and my wife feel about it.

I completely agree with this

and this:


If you really want to have kids, please consider adopting. There are so many children in this world that need a good home.
It just seems a little irresponsible and selfish to bring another life into this world when you could provide for one that's already here.

In this socio-cultural context, I agree.



So far 3 points have called my attention...

1. Having kids in order to raise them for the betterment of the world.

2. Saying that everyone would regret not having kids and that it is impossible to regret having them.

3. Projecting our own desires in the actual personality of the kids. (e.g. my kids will use psychedelics when they grow up)


_______________________________________________________

1. I think having kids is not necessary in order to influence the world in a positive way. Actually, I think it is more likely that the individual has more time, money and energy to positively influence the world and the society if he/she remains childless. Also, if you want to raise and educate a child in a way you think is a good way or the best way, you could always adopt, protect or simply educate some kid or kids that dont have a family or via education (i.e. teacher), and still, even after all your efforts, the kid you educated so hard could turn into one despicable individual (Adopted or not).

2. With all due respect, I think this opinion is very uninformed. Actually, there are people who regret having kids (some say it publicly and some deny it publicly but say it privately.) And of course, there are childless people who are just fine without children (some even go as far as to hate the very presence of children in hotels, restaurants and other houses).

3. Ultimately, your kids will make their own decisions about their substance use. Although I admit that the sons and daughters of psychedelic folks would have easier access to information about the several wonderful substances available, it doesn't mean that they will use them frequently or even regularly. And perhaps, some even should consider the possibility that the kids would blame the psychedelics for the <<mistakes>> you make or maybe even, unfairly, blame it in your face if they find out.

ex. no. 1

Daughter: "Can I go out?"
You: "Not tonight"
Daughter: "But you can smoke your fucking drugs whenever you want huh?"
You: "ouch."


ex. no. 2

Son: "That is the reason why mother hates you!! You care more about drugs than your family. BWAAAA!!"
You: "That is not true son! Your mother is angry for other reasons that have nothing to do with that (fact)"
Son: "Go get high, DONT TALK TO ME!"
You: "ouch."

You must not have kids.

I regret having a child as young as I did, it wasn't planned, and I was a shitty father for at least the first five years of her life. I regret staying with her mother for as long as I did, because in the end I was only fooling myself into thinking I loved her when in actuality, I hung around for my daughters sake (which is definitely not a good reason). I regret some things, but I don't regret the fact that she was born. She was a gift. She helped change me as a person and make me much more calm and mature. Anyone who can say that they regret having a child, IMO, is blaming their child for the problems they do not want to deal with in themselves. She forced me to change who I was. If I hadn't changed, I might have laid the blame on her for the way my life turned out.

Some people don't like children. I'm actually one of them. Small children can really get on my nerves. It's only now that my daughter is older that we're really starting to form a close relationship. When she was a baby and toddler, frankly, she frightened me.


This is why you should be extremely careful what you tell your child about your drug use, and especially how you tell them. If you tell them when they're able to understand that not "all drugs are bad mmkay" and that you use them in a spiritual, sacred context, not simply for pleasure, then you could avoid such hilarious hypothetical arguments like the one you presented. Honestly, I don't know if or when I'll ever tell my daughter about my psychedelic use. It may not be something she ever need know about. If she chooses a life that is relatively sober and continues to see drugs as a bad thing, I'm not going to volunteer any information that may harm our relationship or the respect she has for me. If she chooses to delve into these substances like I have, I will most likely share with her what I have learned and offer her any advice that I think might help her.

From Industrial Society and Its Future:



Now, I don't know if I will actually have ten kids, and I'm not here to start a discussion about the author, BUT, in my young anarcho-primitivist days it did strike me, and it still strikes me, what better way to change the future than to have children?

And Ayahuasca has told me, time and time again, "If you don't like it, CHANGE IT." My thoughts about technology have evolved somewhat, but there are still definitely MANY ABUSES inherent to the current structure of civilization that I would like to see GONE. The corporate pillaging of the earth, war, corrupt politicians, the gaps between rich and poor... There is a lot of injustice and a lot of suffering that could be avoided. I don't have all the answers... but I'm not even putting any working suggestions forward if I don't try to fashion a better world myself... that extends into the future... yes, by having children.

Who is going to look after this place? How can you ensure someone will look after this place, this wonderful Earth? Who will tend to the forest of psychedelic plants beneath which our bodies are buried? HMMMMM?

Oh, and, I used to absolutely loathe the idea of children, until I made peace with my excruciatingly painful childhood. I can't say that it doesn't still scare me, the thought of having kids. But I will be the coolest mother.

I want to have kids, my girlfriend may even be pregnant now. If you think about it consciousnesses is what its all about, adding consciousness to the universe to expand its awareness. Its right up there with eating, good food is satisfying what can you say about an orgasm ?

yes its a less than desirable world right now but adversity builds character.

I find very intriguing and somewhat worrying the mystery that it is usually people with a wider perception of life and a decent education that hesitate to have kids...
It's also the more narrow minded and less creative of my childhood friends who have been the first to produce offsprings...

I started to write:

"Worldwide, there is an inverse correlation between population growth and income as well as educational attainment. Higher educated and higher income folks have more options for self-fulfillment."

But as it came out on the screen, it just seemed hollow to me. Perhaps I should stay away from platitudes on this topic and keep it personal.

I have chosen to forgo children, and (so far) it is certainly the right path for me. I'm in my 40s now, so the decision of having my own is past. When I imagined the way in which I would want to parent, I saw that it was not possible without giving up or deferring my personal dreams. Being a good parent requires a level of commitment that I believe I would have resented providing.

I have had to contend with many harsh judgments of my decision--
* It is immature to not have children (or it's a 'guy thing'
* I will be lonely in old age
* I am being selfish
* I am missing the only opportunity for real happiness

For anyone reading through this thread as part of their decision on child rearing, I want to make clear that none of the judgments are true. Listen to your heart and make your own decision.

I would also recommend that you do not hinge your decision of having children based on abstract ethical issues (the world environment, for example). Ethics can support your decision, but first you must listen to your heart.

Ive noticed this as well, its scary

KIDS ROCK!

What an awesome experience! I have raised 4 boys.

I have a 26 year old son who is a sargeant in the army and who has done two tours in afganistan.

I have a 22 year old son who has been takinging yoga for 7 years and and teaching for the last year. He is currently traveling the upper Amazon, searching for the truth.

I have a 21 year old son who works at a large bakery, hes is a Teamster.

I have a 14 year old son who is a freshman in highschool plasy football and is a member of Future Farmers of America/4H

4 sons four completely different paths in life.

There have been some rocky times for sure. The experience is so cool.

Raising kids rocks.

My DNA my genes move on and adapt. I live on. How I live on depends on how well I raise them.
It requies selfless love.

^ awsome.