[quote:33f6cfba96="litrium"]Ok here's another view. Maybe the human body/mind/soul is a perfectly balanced organism just like a t.v or radio. When you 'smoke' the D which is not NATURAL in the least you are amplifying something which is not ment to be amplified to a oblitaratingly high level, sort of like putting the volume to max or fucking around with a t.v like saturating the color and contrast to max. Also it's damn weird and creepy that not many of you Dmsters are talking about the dark and scary shit that you most of the time encounter with this stuff, it's like your in denial or you want a newb to experiance it for himself without telling him of the dangers, wtf?! Any newbs out there, think twice, this stuff is NO game, it's deadly serious cosmic/astral/soul shit that your dealing with here! Elkabong I just read your report, and you think this was a good thing huh? "Our story reminds me of the 'brainlingus' I once had from a very large snake. It was a she-snake, enormous, and her skin was the wall-paper of the play-pen like room I was in. The 'room' was intitally populated with little children - the 'ninyos' - but suddenly the whole wall fromwhich the children emegrged turned into the jeweled skin of the mother of all, loving, serpents... circling me Each diamond-jeweled shape on the skin of her gigantic body swirlled around me and then her mouth-head end ate me whole .!... but first I got a good, orgasmic 'probing' from her tongue; brainlingus ! ..! The ninyos are a whole other story though ..."[/quote:33f6cfba96] litrium, I completely do understand where you are coming from. There can and is the possibility of darkness and fear involved with DMT - just as such with all of society. There is no doubt that the human mind has very dark places that may simply be suppressed in a stable individual. I think the power of DMT as explained in posts here are playing it down as easier to deal with than it really is -- as all happy, colorful , playtime in bubbly dmt world. Nobody wants to talk about the extraordinarly intensely bizarre nightmare that DMT can bring you to the brink of - this stuff is no joke, and is probably too strong for about 30% of people that try it. Seasoned psychonauts may very well just go straight for the breakthrough, but I'd bet that most will ease into it like an acquired taste. In terms of health risks -- It seems mostly safe, except for the fact that it sends that body into instant fight or flight freak out mode where you might feel your heart beating crazily and that in itself can produce a bad trip; Individuals with high blood pressure, chronic anxiety, or other health issues should avoid any high dose experiments. I think that the extreme intensity of DMT can not even be imagined or expected from simply reading about it - attempting a breakthrough is going to be so severe that your mind might either snap or you could get so freaked out that you are begging to come back.. I don't know if folks here are in denial or not, but I firmly believe that DMT definitely isn't all peaches and cream.

Hey guys, cant comment from experience as although I have had DMT a few times I am yet to breakthrough, but if you are worried about it why dont you do some meditation or lucid dream work to learn how to navigate the realms first? I have done loads of lucid dreaming and am keen to find out if you can control the DMT realms like I can control my dreams. If I can problem solved. If not, well who knows I will go along for the ride. Terrence McKenna took DMT to a buddhist monk and the monk had it. He said that it takes you well into the bardos but didnt say it was evil. I guess its how you react that makes a difference. Anyway my two cents worth. Take it easy guys.

litrium: how did you come to this conclusion? is this related to a DMT experience you had? the reason I ask is that you post a subjective opinion with nothing really to back it up. I do understand what you're talking about, withe the evil circus/reptilian/insectoid and just straight up WRONG vibe you can get from DMT sometimes. But I've had those type of experience with all psychedelics I've tried, they are not unique to DMT. Do you have any actual recorded incidents of DMT causing someone harm? because until then you're just stating your opinions. XENONSION: WHat the HELL is that avatar? that thing has me laughing my ass off. is there sound that goes with that anywhere?

deemster : Well, shamans from south america not only believe that it can do you harm in the spiritual sense, they believie that the spiritual reality and the physical one are interconnected. Like it is a continum. So picture this, you have a really bad insectoid experience. It's soearth shattering that you develop a paranoia each time you hear insect noises in the physical reality. The experience was so bad that you develop some kind of psychosomatic disorder thatis expressing itself in your physical body. Not big symptoms, someting like you are thinking of hyperspace because you saw the reality bent a little at night on a tree or soemthing, and then you have a fright and you [u:3f697fe4f2]take a deep breath with fear and stress[/u:3f697fe4f2]. And lots of time you go to sleep, you have hypnagogic images and noises that are hyperspacial in nature, so much that you have trouble sleeping. I have a serious back ache since my last physical devourement by a mantid. Of course, i wont go to the doctor with this haha. He'll give me some paxil and a handshake at best. He'll call the security and will not want to do buisness with me ever again at worst. haha! So put together all the little symptoms ( like the breath thing, sometremors ect , heroin addiction or drinking to shut your mind off like w.s. burrough did) and then, all these little mental habits that are more or less implanted in you, or that you developped because of post traumatic stressm go on to create some cortisol in your brain or i dont know what ( i am not a doctor ) ,and banng, cancer. Another example :you dose high on mushrooms, you are SO STRESSED by what is going on, that with each waves, you have leg seizures. Next thing you know, sometimes in your dayly activities, you have leg pain, and when you see an horror movie... you move your legs like an anxious motherfucker. It's like if all those little, small, unacknowledge symptoms that are an expression of a state of mind can somehow lead you to serious diseases. Shameless sophism : '' we dont know what is cancer anyway '' lol On the other end, if you are enlightened and can get rid folks of bad influences, well then you are a curanderos, a yogi or a monk. I could give some references but it is kind of useless, this kind of thinking is all over south american shamanistic culture, and all over the hindouism/boushism thing. But if you insist : Stanislav Grof - Spiritual Emergencies, Whilem Reich - everything he wrote basicly, Swami Vishnudevananda books about yoga... There is lots and lots of books like this. But OF COURSE it is controversial. This is stuff that our occidental backround know almost nothing about. I mean, about altered states and spiders froms mars. I dont think we can aproach these things with reason/rationality/logic anyway. But that is another story. To say that these things are '' all in your mind '' is so foolish and irresponsible. Maybe it is true, maube it is not. So if you are mistaken while saying that it all comes from the imagination, you are in deep shit. If you are mistaken while saying that it comes from outside of our imagiantion, well then you are only acting cautiously for nothing - no big deal. The thing is, if it is all in our minds for real, then fine, we dont risk anything and it's all good. If it is not, then, maybe we should use alot of caution and restrain. So, until we really know about the origin of all of this (our heads or not ) the only course of action to take is the one taking into consideration that these manifestations are real so we dont take the risk of going through stuff we dont want to go through.

[quote:c46094fbd6="Deemster Teamster"] XENONSION: WHat the HELL is that avatar? that thing has me laughing my ass off. is there sound that goes with that anywhere?[/quote:c46094fbd6] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoOihBb78w

Well if you smoke it and breakthrough you will know that it's NOT all good in those spaces. I usually encounter a seductress, something like a lure that's usually beautiful, it's like their fishing for you. But the deeper in you sometimes get the dissection, and experimentation by weird and what feels like manevolent entities. What's weird is that sometimes these fuckers seem to admire you, it's like your the prize in there. I dont' also think it's ALL bad either I just think this is ONE powerful rocket ship to never never land that will take you anywhere so that's why it's dangerous, it's random and your not protected spiritualy or astraly. Heh in the Amazon the Shaman's have years of training and experiance in how to navigate and stay safe in these realms (yes they ARE real!) and we dumbasses just fucking plough right in and disregard all that, well I guess it's ballsy but I don't know, there might be a price to pay for this breaking and entering into the spirit realms that we aren't aware of, maybe not even in this lifetime!

I have tried ayahuasca made by a shaman in the amazon (Iquitos Peru) and have done shrooms , up to 14 grams dry potent cubensis,I have done 20 hits of purple microdots(acid in the early 80's) when I was young.and none of those even comes close to a DMT breakthrough.I can see why those shamans won't toutch DMT freebase.Aya (although also basically a DMT trip) is nothing like a hit of freebase.It's more like a mushroom trip.On mushrooms I have had extemely spiritual experiences where I talked with God and even became God and everything was about peace/love and understanding and so on.I've had similar experiences on LSD.But DMT is always like a computer generated cartoon full of strangeness elves,insectoids,out of this world,no words to describe places,but never has it even been close to being a spiritual trip.Exept once when I became just an electromagnetic wave and I croossed over to the afterlife and circled the globe (earth) as a wave and even caught a radio station from venezuela during the trip.I met the spirit of a dog I used to have 15 years ago.This trip took place outdoors in the country laying down on the wet grass after a small rainfall.all other trips were inside my appartment.Set and setting my friends especially applies to DMT.Also your intent.What is the reason for going to hyperspace?Don't fuck with the spirit world.these realms and these entities are not from within us they are from some far away realm that DMT has a way of transporting us to.It is not a toy to take recreationally and if you enter it's at your own risk.No one should be going ther just for the hell of it or because DMT happens to be available to you.Respect it,approach it with respect and good intent and the insects won't bite you.they are curious creatures and are probably as afraid of you are you are of them.One kept poking at my eyeball once and I told it to fuck off and he did.I will certainly be doing ayahuasca in the future and I will certainly keep eating shrooms till the day I die.I ain't sure if I'm gonna be smoking DMT freebase.Been there,done that and didn't really get taught any secrets of the universe as I've been taught with shrooms. Namaste QB

[quote:3d30e2948f="sillysyban"]Hey guys, cant comment from experience as although I have had DMT a few times I am yet to breakthrough, but if you are worried about it why dont you do some meditation or lucid dream work to learn how to navigate the realms first? I have done loads of lucid dreaming and am keen to find out if you can control the DMT realms like I can control my dreams. If I can problem solved. If not, well who knows I will go along for the ride. Terrence McKenna took DMT to a buddhist monk and the monk had it. He said that it takes you well into the bardos but didnt say it was evil. I guess its how you react that makes a difference. Anyway my two cents worth. Take it easy guys.[/quote:3d30e2948f] Yes, you can! I too have been into lucid dreaming and meditation (lucid dreaming ironically became more of an interest during a period when no mind aids could be found...meditation has been come a passion slowly and DMT has undoubtedly helped me recognize and enter a state of clearheadedness). I find you can, to some degree, control how the state works. Naturally, I find myself drifting into the backseat (this is NOT what one should aim for)...but when I am fully conscious my mental state is almost what controls the happenings around me. I can't summon up something exactly...more like I can travel sidewards (follow?) into the next dmt world. Last night brought about an interesting experience for me where I felt almost like I was connected to something along my spine (through my brain down my spine, not in a forceful way though...and then it felt like I was being shown stuff while the 'bigger process' was going on....kind of like I was being defragmented or deprogrammed. VERY INTERESTING....not exactly sure what to think...but it was entirely positive so far...

I too had many lucid dreamings... but I find it in no way looking likes DMT trips (if I would experienced DMT trips which is not the case of course), nor any help on controling DMT trip. Ok, maybe on the least end of a trip, there is some kind of control on the imagery, but DMT trip is just... something else ! The issue here is to ask why wanting to control anything ?

[quote:2c25a6ea86="Garulfo"]I too had many lucid dreamings... but I find it in no way looking likes DMT trips (if I would experienced DMT trips which is not the case of course), nor any help on controling DMT trip. Ok, maybe on the least end of a trip, there is some kind of control on the imagery, but DMT trip is just... something else ! The issue here is to ask why wanting to control anything ?[/quote:2c25a6ea86] Control to not be literally spiritualy raped by horrible creatures that would give the creeps to H.P. Lovecraft. Control to end up in the ''higher'' realm and meet great entities, develop contact with them ect. Hey, there is money to make here, '' hyperspace guided tours 40$ '', '' get rid of your insects 15$ ''. haha ! For the dream/meditation thing, it's the same for me. If by meditation you mean relaxing, closing your eyes and entering an altered state of consciouness, well i do that all the time and it's great. But i would never mistake the meditavie state for the dmt madness. To me it's a complete different ballgame.

ok well dmt being safe... i think dmt are only meant for the mentally strong and those who are spiritual intact with themselfs...same goes for any phycedelics, someone who has smoked it about 20+ times has never had a negative experience, all positve. he saw buddah and spoke with him which was his all out favorite..... but his friend wanted to try some and this kid thought he was all tough and could handled it, so he smoked it the 1st time and no joke almost pissed himself, and will never touch it again i also thought maby dmt has something to do with karma??? maby them crazy things you see doesnt like the things it sees in your soul soo frightens you. dmt is such a mystery and i think everyone should have their own opinion on it, it has helped someone very very very much in his life and acouly made him change into a much better being, and pure i could go on and on about possiblities in my head but it would never end

SWIM once smoked DMT and found himself in the middle of some foreign space field. From above him he saw great flashing lights moving in a circular pattern. The closer they approached, the more fear stricken he became. Then, behold, a brilliant beam of blue light descended from the starcraft, encompassing him and lifting him, paralyzed, aboard the craft. It was there that he was accosted by the alien hyperspace beings. They probed, prodded and anally penetrated him repeatedly. It seemed like they were laughing at him. He is now seeking some sort of Intergalactic Rape Counseling as he is having feelings that he somehow brought this on himself. Um yeah. Just kidding. Shit, rewire my DNA, I'm not too concerned by it. It cant get much worse than the current human affliction anyway. I welcome the transformation, "evil" or otherwise.

Zero wrote: [quote:6ba30be146] I welcome the transformation, "evil" or otherwise. [/quote:6ba30be146] Wtf?! So if in the real world someones fucking with you for their own self interests and hurting you and it's plain wrong and evil you'd welcome it? That says alot about you dude. Your probably already possesed or some shit. Yeah you right zero, let them tamper with you willy nilly, disect, rape and operate on you and eat your astral self, I mean hahaha it's only your soul were talking about, who needs that lil thing right? But hey, atleast they put on a show! Hey mentalextensions I don't think it's all doom and gloom and evil when your in there, there is the good side too but when it goes bad it goes really really BAD and also, if this stuff does physically transport you to other places in the universe then damn it's one big ass place so odds are your gonna land in the badlands eventually.

[quote:49f3f58bee="litrium"]Zero wrote: [quote:49f3f58bee] I welcome the transformation, "evil" or otherwise. [/quote:49f3f58bee] Wtf?! So if in the real world someones fucking with you for their own self interests and hurting you and it's plain wrong and evil you'd welcome it? That says alot about you dude. Your probably already possesed or some shit. Yeah you right zero, let them tamper with you willy nilly, disect, rape and operate on you and eat your astral self, I mean hahaha it's only your soul were talking about, who needs that lil thing right? But hey, atleast they put on a show! Hey mentalextensions I don't think it's all doom and gloom and evil when your in there, there is the good side too but when it goes bad it goes really really BAD and also, if this stuff does physically transport you to other places in the universe then damn it's one big ass place so odds are your gonna land in the badlands eventually.[/quote:49f3f58bee] i could have writen tis post. I seriously cannot understand how in the world you can welcome evil shit like this. And yes, i also think that there is a good side, a really good one, BUT you are bound to land in evil land one day.

Dmt is 'safe' when handled like a sacrament - a gift from god to wake us up. Heavy topic already .. but I have to fall on one side right away - based on experience with dmt I must say that there is no such thing as evil ! And dmt is a very good way to become 'enlightened' to this and much else about the freaking joy and mystery about being alive, and 'conscious' of that ! Love put everything here ... The big bang was an Orgasm of love some 16.8 billion years ago .. and it's still going on ..> ! Beyond the ego, there is NO Evil ! Evil Entities are something the ego believes in... The ego defines safe in it's own way... Evil behaviour in humans is a pathological condition (of the mind and heart). Only the ego does evil and sees evil, sometimes just out of fear. Evil people and societies do Evil since they have gotten detached from their Source, or do not know god from direct experience. Evil doers are all humans who forgot where they came from. No other animal is 'evil' ..! So i say that to end evil in the world we must recognize it is a superficial pathology of our conscious state of mind ... and heal that separated-ego state, 'wake' it up to the universal truths about being alive. All definitions of Good vs 'evil' scary vs non-scary .. any word you have for it is stuck in a dualistic consciousness. As long as we are using words and dualistic concepts we are prone to play ego games ... and word games. We resort to poetry and writing Koans to get-at that 'other' unitary type of consciousness with words and dualisms. Dmt will take this dualistic conscious state and make you experience things that are in a unitary, non-dualistic 'realm'... This is terrorizing to the ego and for some of us it will pull every trick it has to not let go ... Every dmt 'entity' I have met has flooded me with love, or just laughed at my naivete for having just 'figured it out' ... They laugh becuse I am like a child. The entities, (Huge snakes that eat me whole, kids, Day-Glo Gumby families, armadillos ... men in suits, whispy 'angels' all care for me, instruct me, and all love that I have found them...! Thanks to dmt, before we die, we can all seize our birthright to discover consciousness-without-ego ... But when I hear about oter people's worried experiences and declarations of 'evil' spirits and insectoid frights, I wonder perhaps you are terrorized by ego-functions that are still 'langauging' a way of staying intact. I must be lucky but dmt has never induced a 'negative' 'evil' experience for me - just frighteningly extatic ... or full of love, depending on dose. I guess I can accept letting go, even though it's rough sometimes, to 'die' ... but then once you know you're 'safe' to 'die' (hah !), it seems as easy as surrendering as we do when falling asleep. One becomes warm and wet ... realizing we are sleeping in a womb, all life long. By now as I let out the last inhalation, I want to 'see' that impossible imagery including 'sacry' stuff... cemetery-like images of underground decay - it is all symbolic, or 'lower bardo' stuff about the ego ... my ego becomes a million mustard green worms, as I try to just slip away through my ego-skin ... And if you recall, almost all shamanic traditions say that psychedelic voyages start with a dismemberment of the body, a devouring, stabbing and piercing (ie probing), or a burning of the physical body and the ego... These images are not 'evil' - they portray what is happening... On dmt you hardly have time to be 'shreded' ... you 'teleport' out of your ego ! I would suggest reading Graham Hancock's "Supernatural" ... He shows how in every pre-modern society since 30,000 years ago on cave walls, we have been drawing and symbolically depicting ego-death with 'probing' and stabbing, or stinging (bees and insects), and dismemberment. This is an preliminary stage that comes before the shaman transforms into the 'spirit' or half-animal-half human 'theriantope' - the body is probed and disintegrated, then reassembled into a new 'alien' or animal form. Then once transformed, the shaman has the transcendental voyage in that other realm. It's a very good book, and it turned me onto Narby's books ! And also Stansilav Grof's work seriously shows that these 'hellish' images and notions of fighting evil forces are in essence a reliving of our birth experience - which has 4 stages. The evil is always transcended - hell is a place imagined by fear, and you can be guided though if you 'get stuck' there.. Grof's therapeutic work shows that if you relive and go through each of these "perinatal matrices' of memory concerning your birth experience you can readily enter the Unitary state of consciousness. This is the White Light, and in these 'transcendent realms' we discover our past lives, our souls, our 'guardian spirits' ... etc etc ... All of our languages, especially modern science and mechanistic views of the universe, just fail to keep up in this realm ... ... but ... all I meant to say was dmt is 'safe' if you handle it as a sacrament. .... and that there are NO real evil... spirits or 'forces' in the Universe.

El Ka Bong, You formulate things way better than I would do, thanks. DMT can indeed 'show' in case of any doubt that there is NO evil or things like that except in ourselves. If you feel fucked by a creature, well, you are 'just' fucked by yourself NO other way than saying "welcome"

Let's see... freddyjenkins and Litrium... you two are beinf complete wackjobs with your evil this and soul stealing that. My post was sarcasm intended to get a few chuckles out of people who don't live in some dualistic world of good and evil forces. That didnt really happen to me. And if you want to know what really did happen to me... here it is. READ THIS AND BELIEVE IT BECAUSE IT HAPPENED. I was in a room, a very sterile environment and there were two entities present. One had on a white lab coat and doctors gear, the other had a notepad and was jotting things down as the doctor checked me out. He opend me up from my esophagus down to my upper chest and inspected my insides. He say to the assistant, "Oh you see, you see? This is part of the human affliction right here," as he points to an area of my throat, "things fall apart, there is an aging process and he has a problem right here" You can imagine how that affected me afterward. I kept thinking about it. Finally, curiousity got the best of me and I went to see my doctor. Do you know what happened???? I had a cyst the size of a dime on my vocal chord that could have burst at any moment, leaving the great potential to either never speak again, or to permanently damage my speech. Thank you, "evil 11th dimensional soul suckers", for giving me a heads up on a serious health issue. I guess I owe you my astral soul now.

dude, they must have implanted you with a spiritual tumor for revenge on you invading their dimensionz. Tread lightly my friend!!

Elka, good response but perhaps 'evil' was the wrong word to use. Instead 'as above so below' is a better indication of what I meant. An example is humans, we all love our families and are nice and considerate to other people and everythings so rosy and swell. And then let's look at how we treat a lower level beings such as animals shall we? Well we brand them, electrocute their brains, slit their throats, keep them cooped up in little boxes for their whole lives, sheer all their hair off, make furniture from their skin, devour millions of them daily, use them for entertainment and then get a guy to spear them to death but hey were not 'evil', it's just the heirachy of things right? And you see if the animal had a little more awareness he would find humans to be seriously fucking evil overlords right? But in the human world it's all good and for the most part animals live a carefree existance oblivious to their fates until they are needed. So if this 'as above so below' statement is true and there are higher entities in existance maybe from their perspective we are the same as the animals we exploit on a day to day basis but we aren't aware of it because are awareness is too low and perhaps Dmt Raises your awareness to make you see that damn, I ain't on the top of the food chain after all. So your right, I guess 'evil' is a very subjective word but now you know where I'm coming from. And as for how they exploit us? Well it would be a more sophisticated way, not the physical way we exploit animals, more of a spiritual exploitation, astral branding, soul dissecting kind of way, stuff thats way above our heads but it ain't good for us. So that although we may look free, were just fucking little sheep grazing in the pastures. Now saying that, theres alot of people these days that know that killing animals and exploiting them is wrong and this is why I think the DMT realms would also have kind and benevolent entities that would heal you, teach you and impart wisdom to you and maybe the Shamans know, through training on how to hang out with those guys and avoid the astral butchers. But smoking DMT and trying to control it?? Good luck, that's like being strapped to the front of an outta control freight train and trying to control it or stop it with your mind.

I only read the first page of this, but I'll weigh in my 2 cents. DMT is as safe as water to the human body. Inhaling burning hot vapors of any kind will do damage to the cilia in your lungs. Many times when I've used DMT I felt like it was beckoning me to take Ayahuasca instead. All this glop about evil aliens is ridiculous. Jesus, have you guys been listening to yourselves here? If it scares you stay away from it or grow a pair. What I think about DMT is that it's like a doorway to the world of your soul. Your soul is creating the reality you experience on DMT. It certainly seems as though *something* is orchestrating the trip. What I've noticed is that sometimes *the orchestrator* likes to play jokes. If you take things to seriously and have a lot of fear and anxiety about things generally you'll probably be unhinged by it and get all superstitious about evil beings raping your soul. Or you can just laugh. Lighten up. There's nothing to be afraid of, no matter what. It's just an experience. I believe this is true not just for DMT trips but all of life. Like Aldous Huxley said "Psychedelics make you more of what you are." So don't get all hockus pocus about it.