I am completely in support of getting information out there and if Erowid is being unreasonable or self-serving then I think people should know, definitely. However, I don't see this thread being very productive with the way its being gone about. Example:



This is slander. Perhaps it's just the way things are being worded or I'm interpreting things wrong, but I think this post alone shows a lot of the intent behind starting this thread. It seems like Nen felt offended where no offense was intended and is trying to "get even" in a way. Maybe I'm just interpreting this wrong.

I still look at Erowid from time to time. Mainly for information about the new RC's and I think that it is useful even though some information might be outdated.

In the end we have to work together to get our combined information out and looking at the situation I think it might help to get better communication channels with Erowid (since I think that is the main reason for nen888's frustration).


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I like Erowid for what it is but I agree that it's anachronistic.

For up to date information on pretty much anything I go elsewhere but I enjoy exploring the history of our culture as well (that being the drug culture).

That said, I know the site was originally about harm reduction, which is a status you can't really maintain if your data is outdated.

If it was anything, seeing as it is written and not spoken, it would be libel

Also, nen's clauses "sounds like," and "i don't think so" make it clear that he is presenting his opinion. Thus, the statement he is making cannot be false, and therefore cannot be libelous.

Erowid started very good, but then went downhill in many ways and areas. They have a lot of good submitted material that they have not used, far better info and pictures than they have up currently.

I don't think it is what they started it out to be or originally intended. I have seen some presentations on the site by people who work for it and was deeply unimpressed and frustrated.

Maybe they have an interest in continuing to share outdated and false information? I tend to think so.

Someone should start a new site that is similar but up to date, accurate and without celebrity status for the founders, which can really get in the way of doing this type of thing right, anonymity seems to promote better work.

Kinda sounds like what we're doing here!

I could not care less what you think is slander. That DMT underground book is likely going to be outdated by the time it goes to print. Why are they only sourcing old outdated information? I can gather a bunch of stuff from 1995 and put it all into a book too.

When I heard about it I wa excited until I saw the overview for the book. It's just rehashing old outdated information. The real DMT underground is taking place in the real underground at the moment. Erowid is out of that loop.

The most damaging thing to the reputation of Erowid is itself.

I would like to see it stop being funded, I believe it is doing damage to the cause of cognitive liberty in multiple ways.

By no means would I consider it a harm reduction website anymore, I think the opposite is now true.

I can detail this if needs be, though this thread may not be the place. I believe that the approach the site takes has the capacity to both harm individuals and the cause itself, and that it can be demonstrated to do so.

This is fair comment and criticism, not an attempt to defame.

As for the claim about what Trout writing being wrong, I will address this.

I know that there was no claim that what he wrote was wrong, that is incorrect, but the claim by sage to that effect also illustrates he is not very familiar with trouts work, because trout assembles information from other sources, he does not write it in the sense of a usual author but presents information that others have written, much of this information has the capacity to be wrong or outdated, and in older works clearly is. This does not mean what trout writes is wrong, because he didn't write it, he presented it, and he relied upon information that is in many cases now demonstrably false, partially incorrect or totally out of date. That an erowid spokes person could not understand this, which is indicated by their reply, demonstrates ignorance of Trouts work. Moreover in many editions of trouts works he addresses this and corrects old information or updates it. Erowid does not tend to do this, it seems to avoid it actually, sort of like a stubborn person who thinks revising is an insult to the original work, no matter what new information has been published.

Taking a step back from the situation with Erowid, perhaps it's a generational thing? By that I mean, maybe the owners and admins of the site are just unable to move with the times and try to understand different viewpoints to their own. They seem to be stuck in the era their site was born in and, in my opinion, the design and lack of up-to-date content demonstrates an unwillingness to move forward.

Albert put it nicely here:


Maybe this is the case, but it's not an excuse to be arrogant or imply infallibility in the face of constructive criticism. This inability to accept new information, in my opinion, suggests that the site is likely on the way out as the speed at which the psychedelic 'scene', for want of a better word, is developing - for example, new sources of DMT in the absence of MHRB and the development of various RC's, analogs and such - necessitates a dynamism sorely lacking in Erowid's overall framework.

The DMT-Nexus has that dynamism and ability to change quickly as new information becomes available, which is what will allow this site to grow and stay relevant. It would be good if Erowid could stick around and continue to provide all the sound, useful information they've made available over the years, but this inflexibility and unwillingness to open up communications will only serve to turn them into an internet relic.

..if this is SLANDERthen LET'S GO TO COURT..no problem ..bring it on..THIS IS THE TRUTH..
don't try to hide Erowid using the same tactics dodgy lawyers use!! you offend me sir or maam..
you slander ME..!

..basically EROWID you are a publicly donation FUNDED organisation claiming to do harm reduction work..
and you create blocks when people try to suggest you keep your information up to date..

you should GET OUT OF THE GAME Erowid..
if you think this is Slander..i haven't begun..!

Take it easy mate, is it really worth causing yourself to get that aggravated by the actions of people who, in all fairness, probably don't give a shit about your opinion?

I totally agree with what you're saying, I just see a whole lot of anger coming from you and I know how much feeling like that can fuck you up in the long run.

You've contributed a massive amount of valuable information on so many subjects on this site, it's Erowid's loss if they're not willing to accept your input so put those skills to use elsewhere and use that energy for something more worthwhile. Through your work and generous sharing, you've made information available that those truly interested will be able to find, with or without Erowid or any other site.

I think Rene Descartes said it best: "Fuck 'em."

..i have One word for you..Projection..

obviously you, and Erowid, have little concept of being RESPONSIBLE public figures of you immediately brand criticism or expression of dissatisfaction Hate..

really..let's go to court..!

I don't think they need to get out of the game, I think they need to evolve. I remember visiting Erowid along with the Lycaeum around 1998. Certainly now there is much more information, outdated or not, but the site is still a web 1.0 site. After a decade of not visiting it, I went back in 2008 and was surprised at how little it had changed. In 1998, MAPS was a simple site with a plain text mailing list. Just look at MAPS now.

Just saying that the only message I've received in the last year through the Erowid volunteer list is a request for pictures of Melissa Officinalis.

They need more interaction IMO. Maybe Erowid has become too passive because it has not evolved with the web. And I'm not judging the reasons, just stating facts, but hopefully any defensive reactions on their part are symptoms of them being aware of this.

..if you knew me, you may see i'm not a particularly angry person, unless actually attacked..

this is the Media/Information/Education/Public responsibility Game..
if you can't deal with aggressive criticism you are not ready for this world, let alone negotiating for harm reduction with governments in the near future..

think about it..then you might understand why i'll talk about the full weight of the 'law'..
.of karma..
.

I feel the same way. I have stopped taking Erowid serious a long time ago. Good point, phyllode, about
how much donations they get and how little they do with it for the community. Cocky & spinelessly greedy.

But be glad there are much more acurate, serious & frequently updated entheogenic communities like the Nexus,
Bluelight, Lyceaum and some others to take Erowid's place.

Bluelight is Awesome! Along with the other sites mentioned.

I think you need to calm down, nen. I'm not trying to insult you or anything like that, and I don't even disagree with you, I'm simply doing what everyone is claiming to be doing; Making an observation. I haven't had any personal contact with Erowid so you do know more about the subject than I, and I'm sure there is a lot I'm not hearing. I think you need to cool your jets though friend. All I've really been saying is that freaking out and getting angry does ZERO good. I'm not even sure who you're angry at, seeing as Erowid isn't here to receive all your negativity (not that it would help even if they were). We're all friends here.

All we can do is try to convince Erowid to be more reasonable and up to date, and if they won't listen, then as Non Dua Natura quoted, "Fuck 'em". There's no use in freaking out about it. Just move on. It's not the only harm reduction site, which has already been pointed out a number of times.

Erowid has been a big help for me over the past few years ever since I started venturing into other territory besides pot. However, I do agree it is pretty out of date. I rarely ever go there now. Places like here are much better, plus you get to hear from many other people instead of just whoever made a certain page on Erowid, years ago. I do like the experience vaults though. There's lots of stuff there

Nen's not angry! Nen's passionate

I only use erowid for TR's on combinations as I found the articles it contains to be a little abstract for my purposes. I certainly would not donate funds to it. Looking at what we have right here... it seems somewhat rediculous.