I <3 science

Consider if the H+ in the stomach could be bypassed. Could LSH not then be absorbed into the bloodstream? Now consider if it was dissolved in alcohol.

As soon as alcohol comes into contact with the tissues of the mouth and throat, absorption begins. Alcohol quickly passes through these tissues and enters the rich blood supply of the blood vessels in this area, by a process of simple diffusion. Unlike other complex substances, such as fats, carbohydrates and proteins, alcohol does not require preliminary digestion or breakdown for absorption, and no carrier is needed for its passage into the bloodstream. The absorption of alcohol into the bloodstream can also occur directly at the stomach wall, but most rapid absorption occurs through the wall of the small intestine. Anything that will retain alcohol in the stomach will prolong absorption, while conditions that allow rapid passage of alcohol into the small intestine will hasten the rate of absorption. Typically about 30% of all consumed alcohol is absorbed from the stomach whereas 70% is absorbed from the small intestine.

With alcohol as a transportation medium, maybe the unstable LSH could avoid most H+.

All I do know for sure, Benz, is that when I consumed freebase LSA with alcohol and peppermint oil having alcohol already in my system, I had an extremely hallucinogenic experience stronger than most acid, and totally different from any seed experiences.

is there no way to convert the natural and unstable salt of LSA or LSH to a more stable salt like tartrate or some other ?

not that i am sure what i am talking about here...but its a similar story with LSD as i remember.. its a really unstable molecule unless you convert it to maleat or tartrate..than it persists even in water and alcohol solution with no degradation..? Am i close ?

Kash, there's no bypassing H+ in the stomach (unless you inject the stuff..not recommended), and as I mentioned before, alcohol will not protect LSH.

Ambivalent.. LSA is technically weakly basic, and when converted to tartrate or maleate salt, it is more stable. It is still susceptible to slight oxidation, but nothing like if it were in a free base form. LSH will likely not convert to a salt, because H+ in solution may cleave the acetaldehyde group.

Without any extra side effects?

Yea, though in higher doses, your breathing becomes heavy because of bronchoconstriction. Maybe something like mint could help combat those effects.

Weird..I have had insane visions the first time I took morning glories. I had 150 seeds blended up with water, and then I drank some of my freind too because he could not drink all of it. I did smoke a bit of cannabis but I smoked like 2g of pot a day back then so that was normal. I had visions that were like LSA hyperspace or something and a full on photographic quality to them..

I did not have anything near that with LSD. With LSD I had neon geometic lazer beams and glowing auras and tons of euphoria..but not real visions.

Yo, let's do this. I have read about it and I do not have the technological means to do any of the analysis methods mentioned here. On the contrary, no analysis being available keeps certain people from giving themselves the opportunity to try these mixtures, which is not what I want. sharing and learning, both i seek here. I want to know if the aldehydes bond to the amide, and if they don't then the differences must be from pharmic effect of the aldehydes. Moreover, if some way exists to elucidate the structure, i am curious about (if there is bonding) where bonding may take place.
I just happened to think maybe the woodrose or morning glory might have some microamount of a reducing agent (a metal perhaps) but my friend uses an lsa-seed concentrate. obviously there's no reducing agent anywhere here. and i hope somebody with the technologies and the curiosity is reading this and can see what needs to be done here, and is willing to do the work.

People who haven't tried it just don't know. LSA for me is not good. LSA on an empty stomache plus some cinnamon oil in a capsule is npt much different.

But when I mix the LSA wawa with cinnamon oil and let them hang out together, its completely different. It's more potent. My mind races. It's better. I don't care at all about the chemistry, I just know that in me personally, I won't take lsa without cumin, cinnamon, or peppermint.

LSA with cinnamon gives me lots of organic geometries. It is very visual for me, but in a much different way than salvia divinorum. Salvia visuals are so electric and sharp. LSA visuals are ethereal and more third person type stuff happens.

hmm, perhaps try the lsa with italian salad dressing, see if it makes it more potent

hough most likely talking out my arse, please all do whatever works for you. I have no experience with lsa/aldehyde but alot of people believe that this works better for them. That is probably the most important thing here. Believe! Some conclusive evidence either way would be great, though better if it supports rather then detracts from the positive reaction many people report. Just my 2%.

That's not how we roll here, we don't bring data only if it supports people's beliefs, the truth and information should come regardless of people's beliefs, and even inspite of them. How could the world have improved if humans only brought knowledge forward if it matched with current beliefs??? So the fact that the world is round or that we go around the sun would have never been published. Would you rather live in that world, really?

Maybe that has something to do with how well your stomach handles the substance instead of with a mysterious chemical reaction. Many people don´t like LSA seeds because it causes gastric problems. Maybe those effects somehow diminish the absorbtion of lysergics into the bloodstream. Something like mint or cinnamon may soothe the stomach, so absorbtion goes more smoothly.

If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons why for instance HBWR seeds are hard on the stomach is that seeds contain cyanogenic glycosides, but performing a proper CWE with the seeds should sort that bit out.

On the topic, I've had two types of experiences with LSA seeds. The first ones, basically grinding and eating seeds, were overall pleasant but there was clear stomach discomfort and a somewhat strong body load. Later on I extracted a dozen HBWR seeds using a strong peppermint tea, previously adjusted to pH 4 with tartaric acid, and for me there was a world of difference. Not only for the absence of nausea and stomach pain, but also for the intensity of the experience. And for how clean it was.

Now, after reading this, I guess I'd have to call it placebo...? It's shocking, because the results were reproduced several times, consistently. Ah, well.

Where did you hear that your experience was placebo? polytrip didn't even imply that.

I think we have to be pretty clear on that; we do not necessarily argue that the combinations (e.g. LSA with cinnamon, LSA with pepermint etc) produce different experience. It is not far fetched to think that combinations of substances can produce profoundly different experiences. We're fine with that, we truly need these reports and we love and encourage this type of experimentation. Reporting back with experiences/experiments are invaluable to the field and they set the base for analytical studies.

But to claim, or even indicate without any support that the change in the experience was due to a chemical derivatisation of LSA is totally far-fetched and will not be considered serious enough for this forum. If you cannot demonstrate said claims the simply don't say it. Thinking how fast misinformation is born and spread (not many people understand the difference between "hypothesis" and "demonstration" - remember the strassman-pineal dmt theory and how fast this hypothesis started selling as a "fact"?) we have a moral duty to be careful with any claims made.

Sorry, I probably did not make myself clear... I was not expecting a retort like this, my post was just an account of my experience, no suggestions at all intended.

My comment about some placebo component in my experience was not aimed at polytrip at all. I only quoted him regarding the nausea-stomach ache factor with LSA seeds.

And I did not intend to claim, nor indicate, that the change in my LSA experiences was necessarily due to a chemical derivatisation of LSA. I do remember reading long time ago speculations about acetaldehydes and LSA, I tried the acidic cold mint tea extraction of seeds and the result IME turned out to be a stronger, more clear experience. I figured back then it probably had to do with the inclusion of tartaric acid and mint, and when I read today this thread I learned thanks to benzyme a few things I completely ignored. Hence my comment, and hence my impression that maybe the change in my experiences was due to something else -other than the LSA-LSH derivation- like a more proper CWE, or better seeds used, or even a degree of placebo effect in my experience.

The truth is king without a doubt, endlessness.

you want the truth? acidic conditions protonate the amide nitrogen, effectively cleaving the aldehyde. reaction equilibrium favors lsa.

^ punchline of this thread ^

Both peppermint oil, and cinnamon oil got strong CYP2a6 inhibitors - menthofuran, and cinnamaldehyde respectively. I don't know if ergolines are metabolized by CYP2A6, but it could be a good explanation.

The psychedelic nad vasoconstrictive compound is probably ergometrine, and the vasodilative and sedative one is LSA. So basically LSA counteracts the bodyload produced by ergometrine, so you can enjoy your trip without gangrene or something.

I've also found a good cyp-drug interaction database, maybe it could be added as sticky?

SuperCYP - Cytochrome P450 database.