I think you misunderstood Ice House here. He is explicitly saying it's toxicity comes from the effects on the lungs, the deaths are from normal reactions to high doses of opiates that stop breathing. Literally speaking "Toxicity is the degree to which a substance can damage an organism". Stopping breathing is pretty damn harmful to the organism wouldn't you say? Even if it were 100% legal opiates would still effect breathing and an "overdose" could still potentially stop you from breathing as Ice House says. If they were legal perhaps there would be better information to help people not make poor choices in dosing, but I wouldn't see it preventing all deaths as some people just don't know when to stop.

I still think toxicity doesn't have anything to do with overdose. Toxicity of drugs/venom is usually measured as liver, kidney, brain damage. There is whole bunch of studies on net regarding. Here is first I googled.

http://jama.ama-assn.org...ontent/abstract/254/1/81

I still think article is not accurate. Benzos 15 points? Come on!


Regards.

Hmm, i don't know if i was misunderstood or what. If anybody knows the curse of alcohol it's me. My father was an alcoholic..i don't even know if he's still alive today, since we lost contact more than ten years ago. I used to find him lying on the floor, knocked-out by a combination of beer, cognac, brandy, etc. all the time and he was one of the most misserable person's i've ever known.

That said, there are numerous of people who drink a glass of wine now and than, not to get in some kind of trance, but because just because they like the taste of it or whatever.
Alcoholic beverages are not always drunk to get intoxicated. No-one smokes meth or crack because it smells so nice. if you smoke meth or crack, you by definition do it to get intoxicated, and the percentage of people who use crack or meth that has physical and/or psychological problems accecerbated by the substances is undoubtedly far higher than the percentage of ALL the people who drink alcoholic beverages now and then, for who the substance has become a problem.

In most western society's, the percentage of the people who has a drinking problem of some sort, varying from weekend binge-drinking to daily dependance, is estimated to be 10% (by a dutch research center called trimbos institute), while about 90% of the adult population drinks alcohol on a regular basis.

I dare to bet with anyone of you that among crack or meth users, the rate of people who're in trouble because of the substance itself (not the legal consequences, but purely the substance itself) is higher than 1 out of 9.

It is perfectly possible to smoke crack or meth once or twice, out of curiousity and to leave it there. But regular use will destroy you at some point. That some of you know someone who seams pretty healthy despite of it says not much.
Two things about that: 1-I know dozens of smokers who seem to be doing pretty fine, but statistically, nicotine is a dangerous killer drug and nobody here would disagree.
2-wait how the person who seems pretty capable of dealing with his crack/meth addiction is doing ten years from now. Odd's are that it won't be so good.

I know stimulants and the effect they have on people. I could recognise regular users of coke or speed, in a room with 100 people anytime.
They're either the superficial slick looking type of guy that is known for having a big stake in the destruction of our planet, or they look (and often are) like they've recently served in afghanistan...just by the look in their eyes. The jarheads.

Coke and speed aren't just killer drugs...they're also drug's for killers. And in that sense they're performance enhancing indeed.

Free choice when it comes to heroin is just ridiculous, it would be very irresponsible of the state to legalise heroin because people are stupid and will get addicted and then what? They will be a slave to a drug that the state created and then will no doubt have to provide for. It would make sense to give junkies heroin, its easier to get off of than methadone and its better for you and I have read of some people getting heroin prescriptions from their doctor and living till their nineties, travelling the world leading a full life but their still dependant on a drug and if it was legalised their would be a lot more people dependent. I think they should give heroin to people already addicted and thats it, thing is methadone makes a lot of people a lot of money and heroin wouldnt be as profitable.



I used to live in a homeless unit and the junkies were the quite ones, it was the alcoholics who would be noisy and stink the place up and generally be a nuisance, but smack heads are generally criminals in my expereince who steal cars and break into houses. If it was everyones drug of choice the world would have a lot of drug addicts far more than there are alcoholics today and it would be a boring place, not everyone gets addicted to alcohol, most people do get addicted to heroin.

I woulds also like to smoke opium, well I used to but in the 1880's they did say after 12 days of smoking you will be addicted, im sure you could drink alcohol 12 days in a row and not get addicted but with heroin and the other ones I bet your going to be a bit of a hardcore addict, again just seems very irresponsible to legalise heroin. I used to be of the opinion of legalise it all but I could just imagine even more addicts around than there is the now, granted I do live in a place with a lot of heroin addicts so maybe my view is skewed but compared to alcohol heroin seems scary, addictive and destructive, whereas alcohol can be used responsibly as a social lubricant and for a laugh, not everyone ends up addicted though I do hate a lot of things about it

"That said, there are numerous of people who drink a glass of wine now and than, not to get in some kind of trance, but because just because they like the taste of it or whatever.
Alcoholic beverages are not always drunk to get intoxicated. No-one smokes meth or crack because it smells so nice. if you smoke meth or crack, you by definition do it to get intoxicated, and the percentage of people who use crack or meth that has physical and/or psychological problems accecerbated by the substances is undoubtedly far higher than the percentage of ALL the people who drink alcoholic beverages now and then, for who the substance has become a problem."

I do see what you are saying here, but I think its more complicated..In most western society's, the percentage of the people who has a drinking problem of some sort, varying from weekend binge-drinking to daily dependance, is estimated to be 10% (by a dutch research center called trimbos institute), while about 90% of the adult population drinks alcohol on a regular basis.

I dare to bet with anyone of you that among crack or meth users, the rate of people who're in trouble because of the substance itself (not the legal consequences, but purely the substance itself) is higher than 1 out of 9."

This is in part IMO, due to prohibition though..if cocaine and heroin, and even amphetamines were legal and as cheap as alchol, people wouldnt be breaking into cars and shooting each other over supplies of a drug that is so expensive compared to alcohol..I know tons of people that drink a beer or 2, often more every single day after work and think nothing of it..noone else seems to either..since it is so accepted as a part of this society..at least where I am..every time there is a hockey game here its tradition practially to get hammered..and there is ALWAYS a hockey game on

Cocaine users etc are cast aside as drug addicts and junkies..when from what I have seen, alot of them can actaully be just as productive in society and daily life as any alcoholic..to make matters worse..alot of the people you see wandering around the streets of vancouver looking "cracked out" are people with nowhere to go at all, since when they closed down alot fo the mental health care facilities here these people were left to live on the streets..alot of them are alcoholics as well..

I have personally had to watch a few close people slowly rot away from alcohol and I a sure one of my friends will be dead soon due to the drug.

The comparison between alcohol and stimulants, saying that alcohol can be used casually but stimulants cant is biased.. Both refined alcohol and more dilluted forms are available..same as with cocaine..lots of people is south america use cocaine in the form of raw coca leaf on a daily basis or less frequently and live perfecly healthy and respectable lives..in our society however the drug is demonized and made unavailable unless bought illegally, for rediculous prices that force abusers of the drug to resort to methods of which the alcohol abuser doesnt usually need to resort to, since theyre drug is cheap to obtain, and socially acceptable.

Personally I dont find cocaine,amphetamine alcohol or heroin appealing..

"Free choice when it comes to heroin is just ridiculous, it would be very irresponsible of the state to legalise heroin because people are stupid and will get addicted and then what?"

Come to Vancouver..you will notice quite quickly that heroin prohibition isnt stopping anyone from obtaining the drug, or beings addicted to it..it does however promote more homelessness, theft and murder etc..legalizing heroin would a be great thing for this city to do..then they can stop chasing users of a drug that clearly is not going away anyway, reduce unnecessary crime and reduce the black market sale of dirty heroin tainted with much more harmful drugs..which put less of a strain on the medical system..then all that money can be put into proper heroin rehabilition..since all we have now are too many free methadone shoot up centres and one iboga clinic that probly isnt even up and running atm, that is available to addicts with about 5 grande to spare...

im not saying that people wont still be addicted to heroin, I agree with you there..just that prohibition does not stop that, it just creates more problems around the existing one.

Measure toxicity how ever you will, it doesnt change the fact that high levels of opiates cause humans to go into respiratory failure.

Respiratory arrest is usually the culprit in a heroin overdose, not toxicity. Whats it matter?

Well its the same where I live in Glasgow Uk, legalising it in my mind would create more addicts. I mean when you say legalise do you mean decriminilize? Legalize to me means selling it in shops openly whereas decriminilize means you dont get charged for using or posession but it still isnt legal to buy, surely you dont want heroin shops on your street? I know prohibition doesnt work but legalising heroin is an absurd idea to me and would create more addicts and problems.

Coca leaves are totally not comparable with pure cocaine or crack.
It's like comparing apple juice (contains naturally about 0.1% alcohol) with vodka.
It is true that most people who use meth and crack are psychiatric patients who have been left to rot away by society. If they resort to alcohol, they're often worse of than when they take crack or meth.
Alcohol as used to get heavily intoxicated is as bad as meth or crack or worse.
But the fact is that it is often just not used that way.

And i agree, when there would be a good healthcare system that takes care of people who become schizofrenic instead of leaving them wandering around on the street, then the war on drugs would be won in a day without any bloodshed.

But our society needs those guys on the street to motivate the rest of us to keep clinging on to the ratrace we're in and to buy more shoes.

No, I mean legalize it completely for responciple adults of age to drink..if you are allowed to drink, you should be allowed to shoot heroin, simple as that. Until a person proves to be a threat, they should be left alone. I think we all deserve that right. Simple decriminalization keeps these drugs in hands of violent gang members etc that controll the value of the drug..which is every bit as harmful to society as the addicts themselves, if not moreso. Then there is the obvious purity issues, less people would be overdosing since purity would be regulated, and the cost of these substances would be comparable to alcohol so people wouldnt be as inclined to shoot each other etc to get a fix. I dont think that legalization would equate to more addicts at all, and certain countries that have more tolerance and tell the truth about these things I think prove that.

No, I mean legalize it completely for responciple adults of age to drink..if you are allowed to drink, you should be allowed to shoot heroin, simple as that. Until a person proves to be a threat, they should be left alone. I think we all deserve that right. Simple decriminalization keeps these drugs in hands of violent gang members etc that controll the value of the drug..which is every bit as harmful to society as the addicts themselves, if not moreso. Then there is the obvious purity issues, less people would be overdosing since purity would be regulated, and the cost of these substances would be comparable to alcohol so people wouldnt be as inclined to shoot each other etc to get a fix. I dont think that legalization would equate to more addicts at all, and certain countries that have more tolerance and tell the truth about these things I think prove that.

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No, I mean legalize it completely for responciple adults of age to drink..if you are allowed to drink, you should be allowed to shoot heroin, simple as that.
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I just cant imagine it helping things and think it would equate to more addicts

i just dont understand how it is ever really another persons business what another human being does until they are activly harming others..that is far from a fair or free society.

No, I mean legalize it completely for responciple adults of age to drink..if you are allowed to drink, you should be allowed to shoot heroin, simple as that.
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I just cant imagine it helping things and think it would equate to more addicts
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In switserland, i believe they have legalised it. Or it's still prohibited, but the state gives junkies free heroin or something.

I believe it's more or less working.

Ofcourse the swiss hád a problem with all the diplomats travelling to and from the country all the time ...You know that UN-staff is running major traffic lines, and they couldn't be stripsearched because of diplomatic immunity. Well, legalising is just more practicle then, ofcourse.

Hello everyone.

Most of the drugs are demonized. For example why is morphine worse then nicotine? Both are comparably addictive, and pure morphine doesn't cause a cancer. Legal tobacco kills 10000 times more people a year than illegal morphine. Actually morphine molecule is chemically almost so close to endogenic endorphines as DMT is to serotonin. There is nothing demonic about it. Everyone should have access to both.

"rubbish deleted"

Now how do you feel about not be able to get good LSD blotter for last 10 years because it's illegal. What if you bought bromo dragon fly instead of acid? You could buy real acid 10 times from a guy but 11th could kill you or damage your brain.
Than you're fucked. And it was not your fault. You just didn't have an access to proper acid.

People deserve the free choice. Even though they are irresponsible creatures.



Regards.

"For example LSD is VERY 'toxic' to body. At dose higher that 800 micro grams you face the life threatening liver damage. 1500 micrograms is sure death.

That is very incorrect. LSD is def NOT toxic at that dosage range at all. LSD is one of the most non toxic substanes known. 1500 mics is def def def not sure death. 1500 mics will not even come close to killing a person. Im not really sure what you just said in that post, since after you claim 1500 mics is sure death, you claim to be talking abotu potentcy and not toxicity..potency does not suddenly equate to toxic overdose or death..that post is just sort of confusing.

Yeah...I apologize about wrong claims about acid. Very silly of me. Wrong molecule. I deleted the shit. I hope now it makes some sense. Truth is I'm starting to be tired of all this a bit.

So have a nice evening all of you


Regards.

I totally agree I just cant get my head around legalising heroin and cant see how it could possibly curb heroin addiction or the problems that come with it. I always had the same opinion as yourself, legalize everything but it seems crazy to legalise it and crack or meth, it would be irresponsible of a government to make these things readily available and they would, indirectly, be responsible for destroying peoples lives and creating harm.

I didnt know switzerland had legalised it, I should maybe read up about it. I do agree with giving them heroin on prescription but not heroin shops on the high streets! Maybe if it was legal things would even out and less people would be addicts eventually, but intitially I just imagine a lot more smack on the streets and more junkies, they should really open up iboga clinics but methadone is a big earner and greed seems more powerful than common sense.

Destroying lives?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

Check out the casualties and losses section:

62 killed in 2006
2,837 killed in 2007
6,844 killed in 2008
9,635 killed in 2009
8,921 killed in 2010
Total killed: 28,299 (December 2006–November 2010)


30 thousand people killed. A war that's been going on four nearly four years in a country that is a fucking neighbor to the wealthiest country in the world. It's fucking disgusting that this is how it is. Legalize it and then figure out what needs to be done so people stop dieing.

The article makes a valid conclusion that the legal system does not reflect scientific evidence regarding drugs at all. I wouldn't go as far to say alcohol is "worse" than heroin, but I agree it's at least somewhere in the top 5 most harmful. (Note that I've never tried heroin or met anyone who has admitted to trying it.)

I'm down for controlled regulation of every substance based on science, with greater control the more harmful a substance is.
All drugs could have specific, pre-set legal requirements/harm reduction policies and individual prices per dose at the pharmacy.
The cost will help pay for research into substances; use/abuse/benefits/recoverment/harms etc.

I do agree more harm than good is being done and people do have the right to choose their own highs. We need drug control, not complete lack-thereof!
Addicts are faced with the choice of hideous painful withdrawals, or injecting 10% heroin + 15% random psychoactive (including diphenhydramine) mixed with 75% dog shit for good measure (And hoping not to go to jail at the same time!).
That's not harm prevention, that's harm creation!

This created harm is multiplied when the illegal drug money goes to fund legitimate violent and harmful crimes.
Combined with the fact it's costing and restricting many funds/resources meant to fight that very crime!
Finally to top it all off with an anvil; proto-pax's point says it all.

Don't think I need to elaborate.