No, I completeeeely dissagree. "an enlightened mind" .. "an elightened point of view" it IS a state of mind. Prove me wrong.



weirdly, desiring to be free from desire also, itself, is a desire.

All of those small paintbrushes though, have massive potential.. As a species or as a culture or whatever, we need to raise awareness and take responsibilitiy; for EVEY area of life. Yes, its a beautiful world, but if we're not responsible it could go either way.

Of *course* we can influence the whole, collectively we ARE the whole. If you want to decide that you don't have any say so over your experience then so be it!

"Do or do not, there is no try"

Was that Yoda?

I love Yoda!

Pokey the Jedi

well yeah, I mean Its true: try is a useful word when you're describing the situation that you are in when you're not sure if the outcome will be what you wanted or not: im "trying" to do something. But in the realm of the absoloute; whats 'to try'? just another act. not much different from to succeed, or to fail. is that too obvious?

As I see it enlightenment is seeing the truth in all things. It is not a easy path as we often deceive ourselves into believing something to make our lives easier and more pleasant. The greatest deceiver of all is your own ego. I see the true path as being able to not only see the truth and be objective but to accept the truth.

I do not mean that I am powerless over my own reality. Actually I have gotten to a point where I feel practically free to do anything, anxiety/fear of failure is no longer an issue.

If enlightenment is a genuine state then it must surely have a physical marker. In the same way we are now finding that homosexuals have different brain activity patterns to heterosexuals, I presume that if "enlightenment" is such a magnificent thing then it must perhaps come with its own detectable brain patterns.

I do understand that these small paintbrushes can have a lot of power but collectively we as humanity alone are not the "Whole", it would be somewhat arrogant to believe that. What I mean by the Whole is the entire universe, it follows one very simple rule; it seeks to establish a balance/homeostasis and maintain it, the most striking example of such a balance is the Earth itself. By establishing the balance it opens its own doorways to creating what it "desires". I presume if you went along with this you would be part of the free flowing rivers, not a turbulence causing rock along the line.

Yeah, sort of, probably.

(Perhaps I wouldn't be too far from the Truth by saying this, although some wise men warn us that saying *anything* pushes us away from the Truth... Let's say this is just a game with words. Perhaps it can do something in another brain, maybe it cannot. I'm trying to express the inexpressible - in vain? I don't know. I keep trying.)

edit: Yes, I wanted to say that (I thought it through again). If we get direct access to the Source in the present moment, then the vector pointing from "now" to the "future" (this may be related to "desire"?) becomes zero size and that's when "now" and "future" become aligned into one (the real and only existing NOW) from where the perpendicular axis opens (the channel through which the water of life is flowing into us).

Don't get worked up on it too much, it's just my trippy ideas...

@Vovin: Interesting that you'd say that, Seeing the truth in all things; but I think the whole idea is that the bhudda world view is that all of reality is an illusion anyway, and that the only thing that exists at all is the grand self. So, in that way you wouldn't see the truth in all things but only in yourself!

Actually I would say this is very good insight. Howeever it's not exactly the same, it is more like the closer our access is to the source the less the vector deviates from the desires of the source .

You can demonstrate this physically to much fun! The spice is not just a "SECRETS OF THE UNIVERZE ZOMG" type thing, it also modifies your ability to move through space. It adjusts that vector closer to the desired NOW in every way. Try playing sports under the influence of spice and you will see what I mean. Things just magically happen, goals get magically scored.

It's because of the central principle of balance. If you try to move from A to B and there is a wind parallel to you, you must balance out the the wind. Look at the flight of birds under the influence of spice. In fact, look at any natural movement of anything (preferably simple in its movement such as smoke) and you will see that it follows this principle. Spiced up, it is even more apparent.

Problem is we don't even know what enlightenment is..
sure there have been some creative of just afflicted by a neurosis people that claim to have reached a form of enlightment.

Still unfortunatly none has been able to prove it.
Or show a way there.

ergo, we must access that all previous theories and religions were wrong.

Its really in the philsopical realm with things as, was there anything before the bigbang (if that even happend)

For me enlightment is not a case of understanding, oneness with nature, equilibrium or other vague hippie terms like that.
In the end humans nature is controlling everything around them. By all means possible (in a good way or a bad way (usually the second one)) its our way.
Advances are always made with people suffering, a researcher neglects his family or friends for his work. or one researcher get chosen over another etc etc
Or even that same research funding that could also could have been used in 3rd world countries.

I find it funny that spiritual englightment always is said to be a peacefull thing. Most change is followed by a traumatic or tough event.
Im not saying we should hang ourselfs on flesh hooks while listening to Celien Dion and watching looped video's of puppy's being butchered.
But fat swami's in blossoming lotusses and unicorn that shoot rainbows out of there celestial asses aren't the 'way' either

Maybe we should look to unusually ways instead of the standard routes..

The thing is that DMT might be a catalyst, but there main problem is that we wouldn't be able to reconise englighment cause we dont even know what it is.
We might even be looking at it every day, but because we dont know we actually have to put our left index finger in our right ear, while smoking your neighbours grandfathers belly button fluff hopping on one leg and blowing nasal rasberries to activate it, will never get there.

But first thing we should do is start with out with finding what enlighment really is. Probally something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Cheers
V

PS
the only rainbow that ever shot out of my ass was a brown one..

If you master the art of seeing only truth and that truth is that the world is a illusion. Then you will have to alter your life and your actions according to this realization. Just imagine if all mankind came to know for a fact that god does or does not exist. Think how that would alter how we live and exist. We seek enlightenment so that one can learn his true purpose. In thelema our primary focused is to attain communion with out Anima/animus so that we might know our true purpose. It is a while meaning of life thing. Existance is useless without meaning therefore to exist with purpose one need to know what his place in the universe is.

you know cellux this is interesting.... I have seen this happen at a gatherings, never really heard anyone talk about it before though.....

its funny sometimes when people say things you think about....

Here is another way to say this (reality is an illusion), which - I think - digs a bit deeper:

The Absolute Truth is that only subjective reality exists.

If we have this insight, then we won't look for Absolute Truth anymore, because we'll have it understood that *everything* is in subjective reality. This is the realization that makes 100% compassion possible. Interestingly, the Hungarian word for compassion is "részvét", which literally means "taking part". The awakened one, who sees that only subjective reality exists, can use 100% of his/her energy to take part in this subjective reality, because it makes no sense for him/her to search for another reality, somewhere outside of this. In other words, escapism does not make sense. We cannot get away from our problems. Our problems are the Absolute Truth.



Whoa, thank you very much for taking up my thread! Lots of questions opening up from this...

Here is one of my root fears (which stops me from pursuing this "enlightenment" thing): if I get to that center - perfect alignment in the now, channel opens - then something will undoubtedly take control of the "I". You say that this something has a will, which it wants to carry out. And this something uses the humans who got to the center as tools in this "mission".

Now the problem is that our myths are full of anecdotes and warnings that this power that acts then through us is not necessarily the Supreme Godhead. And even then, who knows whether that Godhead is really reliable? Perhaps he is a God created by über-Gods who is still learning how to run a world, but by its unalienable God nature he is perfectly unaware of this fact (because he is a God, he *must* have an unshakable belief that he is the ultimate controller in his universe, otherwise he could not carry out his purpose).

However it is, my basic dilemma is how to make sure that we don't become tools in the hands of something evil. Or whether we should be concerned about this question at all (which sounds like a kind of ego-defense). Love & gratitude are good pointers, but taking these seriously is not easy to do (I may pray and do all kinds of rituals, but if it's only external, if I don't really live what I'm doing, then it may amount to nothing).

Actually, this is why I'm drawn to Christianity, the idea that by religious conversion one gets washed away by a God (Jesus Christ), gets filled by it and controlled by it sounds like a direct way to this state.

Christianity is evil especially concerning DMT and Iboga, it was there missionaries and believes that tried to rid the world of Ayahuasca and Iboga ceremonies... luckely these devils failed. Still only now have we started to rediscover these ways, unfortunatly unimaginable damage has been done and kept us in the dark ages for so long..

Absolutisme = evil (since it stunts all evolutionary growth)

V

Sorry in advance for this being a long post, but I'm on a roll.
I've got some experience with enlightment that I'd like to share.
Maybe it will help with this discussion.

Please bear with with me, this is coming from my heart and with pure intent, and some amusement. I do not wish to come across as negative. It's all good.

“Before enlightenment, chopping wood, carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood, carrying water" is an old Zen saying. Try an internet search on that phrase. Lots of interesting takes on what it means to be enlightened are out there.

All the questions being considered here point to why in traditional meditation, students are cautioned to only go so far without a guru, someone who has gone before and can point out different ways of looking at what's happening in the enlightenment process and can just generally be helpfully present while the traveler puzzles things out. This is similar to having someone hold you pipe and just be there while you're tripping.

I would define enlightenment as the result of a process of introspection and connection with a reality larger than one's self in a way that dissolves one's self into the greater whole, like a drop of water becoming "one" with the ocean. It opens from a point of non-being, non-trying, more like embracing the light at the end of the tunnel and suddenly letting go than actually trying to get anywhere. You briefly consider the possibility that death will be the result, and in some ways you DO die, for the experience forever changes you, but you do let go and go and go like Alice down the rabbit hole, and then you're there. But it's not anything particularly useful. It won't make you rich or solve your problems. There is only a subtle shift in perception, like I've seen described all over this site, where another reality takes over, you get visuals and such, but with lasting effects. Shallow people look dull, vacant. Nice people look like saints with layers of color. Saints look like Alex Grey paintings. Everything glows like it's outlined in tiny tubes of glowing glass. Beyond that, it's more like a calling to live differently, a changed state of being on a cellular level, with some interesting side effects (auras and other visuals, some esp, sounds, heightened intuition). As long as one chooses to contine to live in the world (instead of in a cave, etc.), the condition levels out and gets put on hold. In India, where enlightenment has been the goal for millenia, one studies basic precepts as a child, reaches maturity, marries, has a family and supports it, does service to the community, then one retires to a cave divorced from society in order to open oneself to enlightenment. In order to give yourself over to the process, you have to be guilt free, and by waiting until all the traditional social and familial obligactions have been met, a person can then cut loose and let go to travel the cosmos in a good way. In my experience, anyway, if you haven't finished with the world, there's a lot of anxiety. Stuff clogs the arteries and the flow fizzles out.

But that's not to say it can't be done, esp. with chemical helpers. First,find a teacher, whose job is to prod you into recognizing spritual experiences you're overlooking (usually you overlook them because they are uncomfortable and annoying). Try to follow your teacher's lead, accept that things are happeneing that you can't control, and gradually let go. It's an internal action of flying, of just freefalling over an imaginary edge into nothing. You have to be entirely still (which takes years to do without drugs but can be done; with drugs you have to exercise a will over the experience that is much trickier but faster)(the will to let go...oxymoron) Then, suddenly (and when you least expect it) a "DUH!" moment happens when you realize the guru is just standing back there by the open door pointing the way (laughing), which you have just come bumbling through. You've been doing everything you needed to be doing all along,and all your coversations with the guide would have been quite unnecessary, if only you had been aware enough to see the path. But you can't see the path when you have the world all around you. That's why it's easier to go do it in a cave. Sitting alone in the dark on purpose, letting go of all ties to anything, even food...and just floating off into eternal bliss, and eventually even death...that's the concept.

The term "enlightened being" seems to me to be another oxymoron. Once you give yourself over into enlightenment totally, you let go of "being" a being. You become the light. At that point, you don't connect to things like going to the grocery store or work or taking care of the kids. You cease to be connected to worldly things. You unite with Whatever's Next, that big thing out there that contains all things. And you don't want to come back.

So, my suggestion is, don't go looking for enlightenment until you're really ready to let go.
I guess what I'm saying is, it sounds like spice is leading you along the path but without a guide, you aren't seeing the clues. The experiences you have are brillant and sacred, but you're feeling disconnected and wondering what the "pay off" will be and when it will come. You may be missing the point. You may be already going through the door and back again, wondering where the enlightenment department is because you can't read the directional signs. Nobody can really help who hasn't been there before, but "being there" is so personal and indescribable that even a guru can't help you much. It's your thing.

I believe you can get a lot of out of the "enlightening" experiences that happen on spice and other ethnogens. I think that's why they are present with us on the planet. For myself, however, I believe they are meant to be sacriments, taken occasionally and intentionally, for the purpose of helping and healing and are an asset when used in socially responcible ways. If they came with a user's manual, I'm pretty sure there'd be a seperate chapeter on going deeper and chasing enlightenment that would have a lot of disclaimers like "Be prepared to give up everything you own and go live on the streets" because that's what seems right all of a sudden. Being enlightened won't win you the lottery or solve your love life or help you get a job. It won't pay the rent (unless you sell out and use what you know to tell fortunes or write self-help books). People may be drawn to you, but that doesn't mean you will necessarily enjoy dealing with their problems. Everything, absolutely everything gets in your way and you find yourself doing emotional triage all the time. If you use whatever you've brought back to powerfully help your friends, they get the willies and suddenly look at you funny. It's a strange dance, which I would not recommend to anyone.

I am not claiming to have attained any particular high state, but I come from a generation that experimented with various practices leading to enlightened states when we were young. We touched enightened ways of being, either through drugs or intense meditation or both, saw society for what it was, gave up everything and went out to live on the land. The idea was to rebuild society in the woods, to live off the grid, and for most of us it turned out to be a lot harder than we expected. Living simiple wasn't simple. Being enlightened didn't help. It's not useful to be enlightened in any situation where physical labor and getting along with other people are involved. Yes, you start out looking for ways to help, but then you discover it's sooooo much nicer to just be sitting out under a tree, kyacking, hiking, or chopping wood without interruption for hours, when there were other things you needed to be doing. It's a bummer to come back from an amazing day in nature only to have everyone all pissed at you for not pulling your share. That's why the monks in India wander around with a begging bowl. They have folks there convinced that being spiritual is a benefit to everyone so the public should chip in and feed the monks. It's difficult to be spiritual and practical at the same time. Most folks gave it up and moved back to civilization when their kids got to be school age (homeschooling is hugely difficult) and, besides, being poor got really old really quick. Fresh veggies, home made bread and doing everything by hand is fulfilling, but it takes up all your time and is exhausting. In today's world there is so much you need money to pay for, even when living on a subsistence level...It just became easier to "sell out" and go back to work like we were suppossed to in the first place. But once back in the throes of civilization, the ability to function at the enlightened level evaporates. The silence, the stillness necessary to maintain a functional enlightened state, the time to still ones self, becomes a struggle. It eventually becomes too much effort to connect. (Drugs may come in handy at this point..) Ever read that story "Flowers for Algenon"? Some mentally impaired dude takes part in an experiment where he gets injections to make him really smart, but it's just a trial and they discover the injections will kill him, so they have to stop and he goes back to being a dull boy again. That's what it's like. I am doing my service now, but look forward to eventually walling myself up in the preverbial cave at some future point and having a go at it again.

So I guess I don't agree that once you're enlightened, you're there and that's it. I see it more as a state of flux you can reach, embrace, swim around in, and end up washed up on the shore if you're not careful. I'm pretty sure there are levels like in a video game (in fact, it comes across as a video game)maybe infinite levels. I have no qualms at all about diving back in, once I'm finished with what I'm doing with this round of existence, and I have retained some useful shamanistic side effects from my short visit to the realm, but over all, as a result, I am having to cope with problems commonly expressed by folks on this site: Straight folks think I'm pretty wierd. I don't fit in, I see a separation between myself and those who aren't particulary looking for the light, and I come across as having a huge ego because I know stuff ...people hate it when you know stuff. Having tasted enlightenment, I get thirsty for conversations that take up more abstract thought. I look for ways to connect with people that surprise and help them. I can see a little farther and envision different solutions, like being "ahead of my time",which can be helpful but can also be frustrating when no one sees it my way. But always, no matter how involved in everyday events I get, there's part of me standing in that other doorway, light blazing around me in a whirlwind of ectoplasm, laughing, because I am choosing not to go home. Why am I staying? Because I am enjoying the world and not ready to give it up to live in the cave of my head, or in an actual cave, nor am I finished with living. It's a strange game but I'm still liking it.

Cellus, as for Christianity or any other religion that asks you to give yourself up to be dominated by some higher power, I can see where that would provide a release that would take you somewhere, but there's lots of room for corruption and misinterpretation whenever you give yourself up to being controlled by someone else, so I don't know if you can be sure you're going to get to where you want to go. I guess if the folks who are leading you into it are people you love and trust, it could be a good thing. My experience with religion has not been good, but that's just me. I respect people's choice in the matter. One thing I know I have in common with folks who accept and live in faith: the rest of the world things we're nuts. You end up having to live within a limited community in order to feel "normal". It's nice to feel normal, so recognize you'd be limiting your opportunities to feel that way. Especially if you're trying to meld drug use and Christian living. That would be difficult as Vularin suggests. However, if this is your path, I suggest getting a copy of "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" (http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Mushroom-Cross-Christianity-Fertility/dp/0340128755) as a guide for possibly blending the two.



Well, there's my thoughts on the subject.

Last one out, turn off the lights!

very nice piece Chalchiuhtlicue!

I think its interesting how the ancient shamanic 'religions' have always been more based on a healthy idea of experiencing the cosmic energies and briefly touching on that as a gift (I personally love this idea). Enlightment from newer religions (even Zen buddism in some aspects, however still next best thing to shamanism) is always about escaping life or becoming better then what we are. Why do people always want to escape modern life? I think really modern life is were the awnser is. Sure its not as romantic to be a urban shaman, but this is our modern truth. We should embrase the modern world cause we are never returning to the old ways.

Enlightment should really be about celebrating the modern lifes we have and making peace with our human state in a every changing and developing world. Even as a shamanic fan, i believe stongly in cosmic energy or whatever you call it, but there is energy in everything even in nuclear waste to common concrete.

V

Chalchiuhtlicue: Thank you very much for your essay, it is a very good summary of the subject.

I am a perfectionist, so I don't stop until I find a solution which can be a true marriage of Heaven and Earth (I have quite an ego, you know). For this reason, I tend to deny the philosophies advocating dropping out - although I understand why they say that and sometimes, in hard times, I feel their call very strongly.

What holds me back is that I feel it's an unsatisfactory solution (you quite well outlined why). I'm looking for a way of living that can be fed by the Light and be sustainable in our modern world at the same time. I'm quite sure that a true unification is possible and I think humanity is here to work out a solution to this spiritual problem. On my voyages I realized that even the angels don't know how this could be done, so I may be completely wrong here. The idea that good and evil could be somehow intertwined with each other is like blasphemy to them. The idea that Satan could be forgiven and loved is unimaginable. But I think there is a key hidden here which can be found. Something which we haven't thought about yet. And if we find that key then we can create a civilization which is modern and spiritual at the same time.

Regarding Christianity: perhaps I shouldn't refer to what I'm talking about as Christianity, because most of you seem to equate this word with the side-effects of the (necessary) purgatory this particular religion brought upon the world. I'm quite sure that if you saw directly what I mean, you would say it has not much in common with historic Christianity. So please don't think along those lines. Rather think about this Jesus guy as a psychedelic warrior who came from another dimension to help our race jump to the next level.

I agree, V. LIFE should be about celebrating life. It's what we got right now and we need to enjoy it more for what it is.

I see enlightenment as a tool. A gift of sorts. In fact, some people seem to be born into it, others just "get it" with little effort, and for the rest of us, it's a struggle that's not suppossed to be a struggle. However it comes, it's not worth anything unless we use it.

I see the process or function of enlightenment as having something to do with uniting everyone's consciousness, a kind of total global ESP or perhaps an organic internet. Enlightenment (or what I'm calling enlightenment, and I could be wrong here) (it's morning now and in reviewing my post, I see I did not adequately point to conjecture when stting my case)...Enlilghtenment when used alone appears to be all about "ME"...how cool it is to be part of nature, how cool it is to be "ME" being this new thing. Only very few folks I've run into in the meditation circuit appear to be interested in getting us all together. Big name gurus tend to be in it for the money. There's a fine line, or maybe a big bold line, between using what you know to better humanity and making sure you turn a profit.

Urban shamanism is cool. You just have to look at it for what it is. Your guru might be the situation you are in. The bum on the park bench with the off center mind shift or the lady who stares at you on the bus until you know what she's thinking, and you know she's right...those are the spirit helpers these days. Here's the really fine line: between staying on the path and going crazy. Half the time you are sure you are going nuts, then something "comes over you" and it's better.

Cellux...thanks for the clarification. There is a being out there, often referred to as Christ Consciousness or Jesus or The Savior, a pure energy that feels good to connect to, and surely a bodhistava of emmense value. My problem is, so much hype has been built around the dude, it's hard to find him anymore. Definately worth the effort, though.

I hope everyone finding themselves on the road to higher awareness recognizes the help that's out there when they encounter it, the courage to go for it, and the patience and energy to keep trying when the lessons are hard. There's a traditional tarot card image which expresses this: a young man with a hobo pack slung over his shoulder on a stick with a happy dog barking him along. He's as carefree as Tom Sawyer playing hooky from school...and he's heading straight for a cliff overlooking a bottomless pit. That image was a life buoy to me in my struggles to stay on the path. Hope it helps.

Chal

I would like to interject one comment as I see this view all over the place and it does annoy me. Neither Christianity, or Jesus Christ is evil. In fact I have a tremendous amount of respect for Jesus Christ regardless of if he is real or not. The writings of him show a loving and compassionate man who only sought to bring about peace and every human on the planet myself included would be a better human being for trying to be more like him. However, anything good can be corrupted if placed in the hands of humans and sufficent time is given. Mankind has butchered the concepts of christianity and every other good religion to fit our desires. Evil does not exist in any religion it exists in the people that follow it. And those people are what corrupts religion. A good philosophy warped and manipulated to fit the whims of mankind. This is modern religion.

Good one, Vovin.

@Chalchiuhtlicue : You'r very apt with the picture of the fool. It would seem to me that giving up one's worldy posetions and pleasures of the body is indeed a risky strategy because these things do provide a level of comfort and security. If your going beyond that, you're going beyond that - you know, nuff said!

wonderful and deeply insightful post Chil

I've experienced healing moments, massive emotions, and intense feelings while improvising jazz piano.

The only time i ever broke through on DMT (never went back after... yet) i got the feeling and intuition of jazz being important. A year of practice later, after many events and coincidences and unbelievable support and dedication I saw massive results.

Sometimes I feel as if I am watching my life unfold, like i'm a small passanger in a fighter jet that not flying it and just along for the ride. I tend to completely forget the past and don't look too far ahead in the future.

Most importantly I'm not important, We are. Everyone must find their true path, the path where the work doesn't seem like work and positive and constructive things are happening for the better in your life. A daily sense of calm will soon set in, but of course like everyone i have emotions and mental distress, but don't get too absorbed in it. When You can realize that everyone is just like you, you look at things a little differently and are empathetic to people, while remaining nonjudgmental yet retaining a discriminating taste for friends and people to influence you and be in your life.

Lastly, "Enlightenment is." Attaching any other word after that sentence begins speaking in dualities.