200 mg acetic harmalas from rue post manske precip. 15 min later 30 mg spice acetate, 100mg calea extract.

i just finished reading this entire thread and am only experiencing mild patternization overlaying everything, music is definitely more clear and am able to decipher each attributing noise.

feel great, just had a bite of noodles in hopes to potentiate, not much difference

redose with 100 mg rima 20 mg spice, both acetate.

follow up to come, so far t+90

200more rima, 30 spice, acetate, nothing original t+2.5hrs

night

buzzed but nothing serious

This may be common knowledge. I am simply compiling what I have just recently learned so that others may make their own conclusions.:

I think the biggest issues I keep reading with failed experiences is that they lack any similarities with actual ayahuasca dosing. This indigenous dosing, as far as I am aware, involves drinking multiple "doses" to achieve anything impressive.

According to Ott: [Ayhuasca Analogues by Jonathan Ott, 1994],
"All samples (16 total) but two contained harmine as the main alkaloid

All samples but two contained harmine as the main alkaloid, representing between 40 and 98% of the alkaloidal fraction. In the two exceptions, 42% harmine was exceeded by 47% THH in stem material obtained from Piro Indians of Peru, and 40% harmine was surpassed by 44% THH in roots of Rio Purus B. caapi, the stem, branches and leaves of which contained 77-94% of their total alkaloids as harmine. With these two exceptions, all samples contained THH as the second most important alkaloid, representing from 1-47% of the alkaloidal fraction, wheras harmaline was the third most concentrated leaf alkaloid, from traces up to 17% of the alkaloidal fraction."

"The overall average for all of the 16 samples analyzed is 158 mg carbolines and 29 mg DMT per dose."

According to Jordi Riba et al. [Human Pharmacology of Ayahuasca: Subjective and
Cardiovascular Effects, Monoamine Metabolite Excretion, and
Pharmacokinetics 2003]

"a 9.6-liter batch of Brazilian
Daime was subjected to a freeze-drying process that yielded 611 g of
powder"

"One gram of
freeze-dried material contained 8.33 mg of DMT, 14.13 mg of
harmine, 0.96 mg of harmaline, and 11.36 mg of THH"

"The low and the high dose contained, per kilogram of body
weight: 0.6/0.85 mg of DMT, 1.0/1.4 mg of harmine, 0.07/0.09 mg of
harmaline, and 0.82/1.16 mg of THH."

This corresponds to (assuming 150lb individual)
40.9-57.95mg of DMT, 68.18-95.45mg of Harmine, 4.77-6.13mg of Harmaline, and 55.90-79mg THH.

From this we can thoroughly conclude that Harmaline has a negligible impact on the effect of most Ayahuasca brews. Furthermore, THH has been proven to be a very weak RIMA so it's efficiency in a pharmahuasca preparation should be considered negligible.

Also from Ott:
"the typical reaction to harmaline is a closed-eye contemplation of vivid imagery... which is in contrast to the ecstatic heavens or dreadful hells of other hallucinogens. But the few first-hand reports of the effects of ayahuasca potions stress powerfully emotive "hallucinogenic" or entheogenic effects - the ecstatic heavens and dreadful hells are more decidedly a part of the psychic territory of ayahuasca. As one Cashinahua Indian informant had commented: "it is a fearsome thing, I was very much afraid""

Not from Ott, but equally important:
"Fear cannot be without hope nor hope without fear."


Personal ruminations:
An example of indigenous dosing mimicked effectively could be as follows:
Time - Total dose
T=0 - 50mg Harmine
T=30 - 100mg Harmine
T=60 - 150mg Harmine, 50mg DMT
T=80 - 200mg Harmine, 50mg DMT (Final dose in gulp)

This dosage outline is a rough guideline, and doses should be consumed in liquid form spread out based upon the timeline. So within 30 minutes, 100mg of harmine should be ingested. From 30 minutes onward, the liquid should be imbued with 100mg DMT (or whatever your respective dose would be based upon weight), half of which should be consumed within the next 30 minutes. The last half should be consumed in one gulp 20 minutes after the final "slow" dose.

To attenuate nausea, Deglycyrrhizinated licorice preparations can be consumed as directed, and especially prior to the administration of RIMA's. DGL increases mucus secretions within the intestines and therefor would lessen nausea. DGL also increases intestinal motility and would help move things along with repeated dosing.

I'll try this out with 3 friends and report back on my results. I think spacing out the RIMA will reduce nausea, and spacing out the DMT will allow for a more relaxed come-up. In the Riba paper, the time until peak concentrations of DMT was 1.5 hours. Dose one would give a steady introduction to effects until dose two gets fully digested and begins to take hold.

^harmaline is a stronger MAOI than harmine is...so it's effects are definatly not negligable in pharma or rue brews..though most ayahuasca it is only minor. Still, I like harmaline and I like rue and IMO harmaline is a main reason why rue is so consistant.

THH also plays a role in ayahuasca. You can not really take it out of the equation if you want to approximate ayahuasca..same goes for harmaline..they are both present along with other alkaloids and synergise with the harmine. Though you can for sure use harmine the way you are suggesting for pharma. It should work. 500mg is a large dose of harmine.

Hello Jamie, I know 500mg of sounds like a lot but I've been getting into pharma recently and I have a question about hamala dose as I'm a little confused.

From what I can gather people seem to be getting about a 1% yield from Caapi ext. so that would mean 1g of hamalas from 100g of vine and most people are needing about 100g of vine to get goin (ignoring these crazy vines people have got from kiwi or people who are sensitive to these things)

Now I may have got my info wrong but are the levels in a brew not going to be way above 500mg, more like 1g+. I am much more interested in a hamala heavy brew as I think that's the most important part.

Last night I drank 140g of vine (70/70 black/red from M H U K. I know the red vine has 1%ish as purges got 500mg from a recent ext) and 70g of chacruna. So this could have been about 1.4g oh hamala's but should have been at least 700mg.

I got the starting effects from my dose and went into a very peaceful calming mind state but I certainly wasn't where I thought it would take me. I'm "here for the healing not the trip" so I'm happy with starting my relationship with Aya in this way. Tonight I am planning on drinking again but I have no more vine so I will be using some rue ext hamala's and I'm thinking that starting with 400mg.

(Personal info- I seem to have high tolerance. Everyone reacts differently. I have no noticeable effect from just 4g of rue or 250mg of Caapi hamala's, these levels do get me MAOI'd but they don't provide an experience on there own)

My main purpose through my studies was to find a method of dosing "ayahuasca extract" or pharmahuasca similar to indigenous methods. I don't really much find myself caring whether the experience matches the indigenous preparations, as it would sound like there are variations in huasca between even the indigenous.

Harmaline has the drawback of having a longer half-life in the brain which can lead to cognitive effects and detract from the experience. While it may be a more potent RIMA, these cognitive effects are what lead Ott to mention indirectly that a pharmahuasca preparation with Harmaline alone, would not be similar to indigenous Ayahuasca preparations.

THH is a wonderful visionary chemical, but from my personal experiences, the substance requires doses upwards of 300mg to have effects on it's own. This is far different than harmine and harmaline which can be subjectively noticed at 1/3 or less the dose (which is scientifically the proven activity threshold!). While I value the admixture of THH in promoting a different, possibly clearer, headspace. I do not think it contributes to the main reason of the beta-carboline mixture with DMT, the purpose of which is simply to effectively inhibit MAO enzymes.

On top of this, some people (myself included) are intermediate/poor metabolizers of CYP-2D6, the primary enzyme which demethylates harmine/harmaline to harmol. This also could account for variations in efficacy of pharma preparations. Technically, some extensive metabolizers (anyone who really gets a kick out of Dextromethorphan) might benefit from a 500mg harmine dose due to this.

Finally, the doses I mentioned were total doses. To avoid sedation and the soporific effects of Pharma/Aya, keeping the dose for myself at 200mg total would surpass the threshold noticed by Ott, and allow for full MAO inhibition. The spacing would allow for the brain to metabolize the Harmine to some degree, decreasing cognitive impact, while still inhibiting intestinal MAO metabolism for up to 3 hours total from each dose.

3rdI...
there is more than just harmine, harmaline and THH in caapi..there are many more alkaloids in there that very well might, and probly do come out in most of the a/b teks people are doing. Do not assume that 500mg caapi alkaloids are the same as 500mg harmine.

I know that 500mg of harmine/harmaline from rue is far deeper than 50g of B.caapi..granted there is harmaline in rue but personally I think this is also due to the fact that these caapi extractions can have other things in them that are maybe less active than harmine.

500mg should be enough for anyone to at least be fully inhibited with some other effects.

"Harmaline has the drawback of having a longer half-life in the brain which can lead to cognitive effects and detract from the experience. While it may be a more potent RIMA, these cognitive effects are what lead Ott to mention indirectly that a pharmahuasca preparation with Harmaline alone, would not be similar to indigenous Ayahuasca preparations."

This is true, harmaline does have a longer half life..however for some reason often caapi lingers for longer in me than rue which makes it hard to come back down and eat food etc at times..so this all sounds great in theory but in my experience it does not seem to work that way.. I really love Ott but I sometimes question some of the stuff he says. Harmine also has cognitive effects and they are not honestly all that different from harmaline..though harmine is less dreamy. I have taken rue and caapi both on a regular basis for some time and the experiences produced are not all that different. Though there are some differences. Personally I like to brew the 2 together at times..then again I dont mind the harmaline in the mix. Harmaline has it's own dreamy visionary qualities that I find can add a depth to the visionary experience.

Trying to define ayahuasca this way is also problematic. People usually only refer to B.caapi..but this is changing. There are many vines that are "ayahuasca" and they dont all feel exactly the same.

I would not take harmaline alone though. I like it in ratio the way it exists in rue. Most rue has more harmine than harmaline anyway. Many people assume that rue is mostly harmlaine but usually harmine is the dominant alkaloid, sometimes with barely any harmaline.

cheers jamie, i didnt think about the other alks present in a full spectrum ext.

so you think that to start to resemble the effects of a jungle Aya then the levels of full spec Rue hamalas needs to start at about 500mg.

cheers

"The overall average for all of the 16 samples analyzed is 158 mg carbolines and 29 mg DMT per dose."

Point is though, often they taking medicinal, not visionary brews.

These indigenous people have worked through their blockages to the medicine (unlike westerners and first timers) and being experienced, will only need a little. I know very experienced people who only need a sip.

For lumpen westerners, who are wanting a visionary experience, most will need to take a LOT more than 30mg or even 60mg. 60mg is where the effects will begin for most.

So Ott's translation of prescribing DMT dosages found in brews which are not really even visionary (as he says himself in Ayahuasca Analogues) doesn't really make any sense at all.

Also, Caapi beta-carbolines are much more gentle than Rue beta-carbolines, you can keep dosing upwards with caapi and it gets better and better, and yet I've found with Rue, you keep dosing upwards and the negative effects begin to creep in quite rapidly.

Also, in regards to this Brazilian Ayahuasca, they don't just take one cup of this 50mg DMT dose! They may quite commonly take 3-4 cups and even go up to 10 cups!

Check the recent thread about Determination of DMT in Ayahuasca. The concentration levels vary between 0,1 and 1,8 grams of DMT per liter of brew (2013), in twelve different samples between aya and vinho da Jurema.

Had a phone call from "Big Pharma" :

I have been experimenting with this for a while. Many misfires.

This is what worked for me:

Fasting for 6hrs

4g rue seeds boiled

Fresh ginger tea to deal with nausea

Piece of heavily buttered bread

Plenty of water

225mg DMT freebase mixed with pure orange juice and left overnight consumed 10mins after rue.

This was a very pleasant buy not overly visionary experience

I'm a big hairy Irish man (200lb) hence all the DMT. Also I don't think 4g rue is enough for me to be totally MAOIed but extracting harmalas is a pain. Also I'm very hard headed. What works for me may be too much for most.

Hope someone finds this useful.

Some swear by taking together, others don't, very confusing.

Hi Jees. I think my rue tea is fine although I am the only psychonaut around these parts. All my misfires included spacing the doses 35 - 45 mins apart. I'm working under the assumption that my stomach deals with the rue pretty quickly. I have been diligently working my dosage up and have nearly burned through my whole supply in doing so.

The ginger tea allowed me to up my dose of rue from 3.5g to 4g and totally negated any nausea felt.

Hey GoodAppollo,

Try upping your rue to 5-6 grams, people with big bodyweight will often need more, then if that isn't pushing your through, try upping your DMT to 300mg. Some people will need 300-400mg, but you shouldn't really need to go much above that!

Chocobeastie, I'll give it a go but I don't think 5-6g of rue will stay in my stomach very long. Perhaps the ginger tea may help. Any other tips on how to keep that much rue down?

I drank 4.5g once, there was quite a mess.

Some people go for extracts of rue because of that.

OK, so I did just that a few nights ago. I took 400mg of rue extract with the same 225mg dose of DMT. This was too intense. I guess I wasn't fully inhibited before.