Hello. I'm happy to see that there has been renewed interest in novel methods for ingestion of psychedelic compounds. The e-cig vaporization method being of particular interest to me not just in terms of its potential for safety and utility, but also as a significant evolutionary step in terms of the metaphyisics of the experience. In contrast with say, a freebase pipe, a syringe, or even a wooden reed placed in a nostril for snuff, the e-cig is just another utensil. No less phallic and artificial than these previous devices, this one coming to us marketed, mass produced, outfitted with buttons, dials, settings, digital readouts set in stainless steel—just another human technology.

For the most part they are faulty, overpriced, overbuilt with needless or redundant features, the artifacts of a disposable civilization worked by end-user economy. And, like a lot of places where tech meets vice/leisure activities—like homebrewing, automobile culture, cannabis cultivation, war memorabilia collectors, fantasy sports, cigar connoisseurship, gun-sport enthusiasts, etc—there's also a kind of boys-club at work. A status based, online/material subculture has built itself up around the e-cig. This is evident in the discourse, insider lingo, and politicking practiced by many of those who take electronic cigarettes up as a serious hobby. Like any method of penetration of the body by substance it comes over-packaged with a lot of karmic baggage like extra Styrofoam for shipping. Like the automobile, the atom bomb, and the filtered cigarette before it, the e-cig is a thing which is symbolic of its times—though it was patented in Hong Kong in the early 1980s it did not come into it's evolutionary niche until it landed in the Global North over the past decade as a customizable, rebuildable, collectable that turned electricity and chemicals into clouds of candy-flavored fumes which shoot out of the human body. A cursory assessment of the voices and persons of the vape-cult reveals that, as with those other tinkerer/vice cultural manifolds, its demographics tend towards disproportionately Western males of a certain age, with a certain amount of disposable income and spare time.

All this boys-club alchemy of blowtorch, e-cigs, nasal blowguns, and Scooby-Doo's head bongs make for rigid precise control and direction of substances which by their nature are chaotic, rarefied chemicals sourced and extracted from the remote wilds of the Amazon river basin, moved by asymmetric fluid forces, particles vibrating in feminized suspension, streams of unknown compounds oxidizing and vaporizing from a given sample of extracted vegetable matter ...chaos, plasma in a reaction chamber, nature in a vice. There is wilderness in the spice, in the weeds, over which we take more and more efforts to exact control... The substance of freebased chaos directed by the latest technology into the body using controlled bursts of energy—fire, air, and electricity. There at the synapse it becomes more than substance; it lives. The drug is alive, and the body, in giving it life, both dies and becomes more than a body, more than a survival machine caught up in the situation of culture. It is a kind of self reproduction a kind of asexual self-impregnation of the sober body with the very substance of consciousness, the Philosopher's Stone refined down to a for-god-sake talking molecule. It's the self-conception and the self-birth of some mode of astral ape out of the baseline homosapien—or at worst it's just masturbation—and THESE are the newest electric/pyrotechnic penis-like tools we have made for that purpose.

The bronze spearhead on display under glass taken from some unnamed Etruscan general's tomb, the black market shoulder fired rocket with etched out USSR insignia, the cheap sex toys being pressed out of molten silicone in a factory in Shanghai by some would-be farm worker, her faced shrouded by nylon masks to filter out fine particles of her work which might otherwise enter the lung——these paraphernalia for the penetration of the body by substance are not innocent of their origins. Every pipe comes to you preloaded before you even pack them with the first hit, yes even those "For Tobacco Use Only."

If Mckenna's prediction holds, that "the drugs of the future are going to look a lot more like computers and the computers of the future and going to look a lot like more like drugs," these little digital fog pens might be one of the primordial forms of that convergence, evolving alongside "addictive" video games, wearable computers, and internet escapism into some singularity of nature, culture, drugs, and machinery that will make our pixelated "virtual realities" seem as provincial as a county fair in rural Maine.

Sorry I got way off track there... Anyway I feel the e-cig is an interesting tool for modern spice consumption, and if it does becomes a standard for space travel I thought there may be some worthwhile advantage in a way to extract alkaloids _directly_ into ejuice rather than salt, evap, or precipitating them out of NP and then mixing with PG.

This lead me to an idea for ACRB e-liquid:

-First extract 1000g ACRB, via whatever standard route, to get freebase alkaloids in d-limo.
-Add a small amount (about 3g) of glacial acetic acid directly to the d-limo
-Reduce d-limo to about 1/3 (say 500ml)
-mix 20ml of propylene glycol** with 80ml water
-pull d-limo with water/PG solution x3
-evap excess water/acetic from PG with magnetic stirrer inside dehydrator

**Propylene Glycol is immiscible with d-limonene. I thought that odd as PG is pretty widely soluble in most things, but a quick test confirmed a fast clean phase separation of PG/d-limo.

My hope is that with the increased solubility of the water/PG solution and the reduction of the d-limo to 1/3 volume, it should yield 20+ ml of ejuice with anywhere from 0g to 15g of ACRB alkaloids and some small amount of d-limonene.

Never let the existence of a wheel keep you from reinventing it... That's been my motto when it comes to innovation, which had lead me to some pretty contrived and unnecessary experiments up to this point and a few very interesting outcomes. With that said, I don't want to waste medicine and materials on what might just be a big mess. Does this method seem sound, or worthwhile? What factors might make it more or less effective than just mixing extracted spice with PG as people are doing now?

i don't know very well chem and i'm at the beginning but, dmt freebase is not soluble in water so in the end you have PG with DMT-FB and water ?

And it's very difficult to figure out a dosage, from what i read around, with standard FB and PG in ml, i think is more difficult with a direcly extraction/PG method, i think it's a lot more easy to get dmt fb from one tek and then dissolve in PG.

The idea was to evaporate the water from the PG/water solution to end up with acetate salts in PG with no more than 5% H2O (though some e-juice recipes do call for more water). The only deviation this recipe takes from the tested standards is adding glacial to the d-limo, reducing, and pulling with PG/water for two reasons: 1) that the binary solvent might pull more alks out of the NP than water alone and 2) that it would prove more efficient for obtaining a crude extract that was vape-able and reducing loss of actives by skipping the steps of crystallization/drying/recrystalization/drying/mixing with PG. A further experiment might attempt pulling from glacial/d-limo DIRECTLY into 100% PG, to take advantage of their mutual immiscibility.

It might be a total waste of time, but I'd like to try for those results.

I'm still learning the chemistry and concepts of extraction (beyond the perfunctory level) from scratch myself, but I think that fumaric and acetic are both organic acids and might behave in a comparable way for salting freebase alkaloids out of the NP solution. Glacial acetic acid is definitely miscible with d-limo and already liquid so I thought it might work in a similar way adding the appropriate mol ratio of about 3g acetic to 10g DMT—though for some reason I always thought it took the presence of water or H+ ions to make acid-salts or whatever...? I dunno—it's all over my head, man.

I'm not sure whether it would become DMT acetate from the addition of the glacial to the warm d-limo (as in FASI/FASW/FASetc), or if it would later lose the acetic acid bond and be freebased from the heat of the dehydrator—both forms are vape-able from what I hear, but at different dosage. And there's no good way I can see to find the dosage (as in mg/ml) this way, even if it DOES work...

But that leads to another troubling aspect of the e-cig as an unchecked and rapidly advancing area of biotechnology. Commercial nicotine tinctures which are the "intended" and most widespread use of e-cigarettes are sold in standardized dosage from 0mg to 32+mg/ml, some brands going as refined as .5mg/ml increments for their more discerning clientele. When tests of the nicotine content of these products have been performed by public health authorities and consumer protection agencies, the results show wildly, even dangerously variant amounts of the drug—even nicotine in products advertised as 0%. This is a drug which, unlike DMT, is active in the range of micrograms, and (again unlike DMT) can permanently stall your respiration at 50 strawberry-flavored milligrams. This is to say nothing of the real elephant in the room when it comes to drug delivery via these air-syringes: the even wilder variations in the means of delivery of the drug from one device to another. "Dosage" and "wattage" as codependent variables in a liesuretime activity would likely never have crossed the minds of anyone but science fiction writers before these gizmos. There's no beating the beast back into the archives of the patent office, so I say let's embrace it and in doing so find a new calculus for "dosage" as it becomes not just a number on a pill bottle or some precise ratio of homo sapiens to grams of dried root. Like set and setting, "dose" is going to become as complex and loaded as the pharmacology of the drugs themselves.

Yes, you can try...but for me the best thing is to have dmt fb and use it in many application so i can prepare a ejuice dissolving it in pg, or make some changa or vape it in standard way...etc etc...but try, any experiment are good and share it ;-) :-)

Yes, I will probably end up doing it the way you describe——Thanks for your contribution to developing this method, by the way.

I will post a log of the procedure and results here (if that is allowed). I began this experiment last week with 100g of ACRB extracted to 1.5 ml PG/H20. I got to the point of final evaporation of the PG/H2O solution and everything looked good. I was down to about 50-60ml of gold/sunset orange transparent solution before I had to stick it in the fridge and leave for holiday. At that point, though it was taking on the typical acetate oil color, it looked clean enough that it wouldn't clog a cotton wick with particulate... From the look of things (from a point removed in time and space) it might turn out to be easier on the wick than alcohol-extracted hash oil, which I've vaped very successfully: plant waxes, chlorophyll, and all.

if i read well, you get dmt acetate in this way....from what i read since now in the forum is not good to vape and you have to go too high with heat to vaporize it, it's good for oral use.

Hmmm... DO you mean that the acetate form is A) not good to vaporize in the conventional way using direct heat applied to a freebase pipe, or B) not good when diluted in PG and vaped with a e-cig? Or C) both?

Do you recall when/where you read that?

Here's why I ask: E-cigarettes are relatively new and the info on vaping DMT salts via PG/VG is sparse. To that extent, the anti-acetate sentiment might arise as an affect of the DMT subculture developed out of a glass-pipe world (the Nexus is an evolving entity). Moreover the infamous acetate "goo" rendered by vinegar salting may have been more commonplace before more recent freeze precip/FAsalting techniques were popularized. The mid-to-late analog culture may have regarded the acetate as being "not good to vape" from its viscous, oily, nature alone. Awkward to load into the bulb of a pipe then difficult to vaporize to full effect, it might have also earned a reputation for being harsh on the lungs via this route. I have been researching this forum and other sites on the topic, and I am certain that I've heard both kinds of "bad to vape" comments about the acetate, a pain to handle, harsh to vaporize—(try googling search strings "vaping/smoking dmt acetate". I could be wrong, but I do recall angst expressed in some corners about the effects of acetic acid on the lungs.

Imagine if a cabal of organic chemists in the early 1950s, rogue scientists conspiring to isolate the active constituent of the Indian hemp plant, were equipped with only limited knowledge of its complex phytochemistry. Their efforts might also arrive as far as a gooey extract, an oil, which while active in animal trials, was still impure and lacked the crisp, crystalline aesthetics of a morphine or cocaine powder. The world lacking any apparatus to take a "dab" for decades to come, its creators would very quickly grow frustrated at not being able to work its gunky resin into a joint. This first foray into cannabis chemistry would be shelved, only later to be called "shatter"/"wax"/"amber" upon its rediscovery in the medical marijuana boom of the mid 2000s when the technology would allow the ultrarefined hash oil to become a standard vehicles for medicinal cannabis.

So I wonder to what extent the "not good to vape and you have to go too high with heat to vaporize it" opinions are based on others' attempts at vaporizing the acetate via the conventional way: flame put to bowl. What should we extrapolate from those "smoked" DMT acetate reports that could apply to the e-cig, which is in many ways a very different ROA? A key feature of the e-cig is its ability to deliver a dissolved compound into the air at lower temperatures than its boiling/vaporization point, "atomized" along with VG/PG vapor. If I'm not mistaken the bulb-and-torch method just heats the alkaloids directly with a controlled flame so that they evaporate rapidly at high temperature.

I'm curious, have you vaped the acetate by the conventional or by the e-cig method before?

Here's the thing, I believe (but don't know) that with blowtorch heat the acetate salts rapidly decompose into freebase and acetic acid vapor. I'm almost certain that the salt can be cleaved apart at a temperature well below the boiling point of the freebase. In fact this is the very hypothesis taken up by forum members in the past in group research for a way to convert DMT acetate to freebase by simply applying heat. Some have reported and others confirmed success via this method, whereby the acid salt breaks down at a temperature that is significantly below the boiling point of the freebase:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=10790

Keep in mind, that thread's from 2010 though, I can't vouch for the currency of that info. I hope it is accurate because I would like to try reducing the final PG juice to freebase with the heat only method.

Here's a scrap of anecdote and hearsay to cap off my wild pseudoscientific speculation for the night. I've been told that, unlike in the case of cannabis culture's "green hits" (that first toke of a freshly packed bowl where the volatile compounds and flavinoids come through at their most intense) methamphetamine smokers, in stark contrast, decry that harsh first hit of their hydrocholride salt which is supposedly acrid with the HCl vapors that make up the "heads" of the freshly heated drug. Might that be streetdrug analog to DMT acetate taken via torch: only vinegar to the lungs rather than HCl? I'm just theorizing here. I don't know the rate at which the acetate decomposition takes place, nor if that rate would even be different with a e-cig heating coil vs its sublimating out of the old white-hot Pyrex.

Like I said, I'm shooting for freebase in PG using heat to drive off the acetic acid, but I do believe that atomized acetate salts are still worth exploring on their own merits, maybe even moreso than vaporized freebase. If the blowtorch method has heretofore resulted in the rapid and complete decomposition of DMT acetate so that the drug is mostly or completely in freebase form even before it reaches the imbiber's lips, then might the electronic cigarette with its lower operating temperatures and variable voltage, with adjustable airflow, and the inevitable marriage of nebulizer and crackpipe, can it be configured to deliver a _water soluble_ salt of DMT directly to the lung mucosa? How might that scenario effect the pulmonary uptake/pharmacokinetics of the drug?

Dmt in a e-juice it doesn't work well because the amount of glycol and the amount of DMT dissolve in that glycol is not enough you would have to smoke so much liquid to get a proper DMT dose.

No you don't it works extremely well, me and a lot of others use this way to vape dmt

marz:

that was then, this is now.

with the advent of truly amazing sub-ohm tanks, it is entirely possible to have breakthrough experiences reliably with very little vapor. depending on the strength of the solution, up to 50mg could be inhaled with two puffs.

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boom