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About the Occupy Movement Options
 
tigerstrike92
#1 Posted : 11/23/2011 3:14:17 AM
I have friend that is COMPLETELY against the occupy movement. I posted a video on his facebook wall that were Joe Rogans opinions on the OWS movement. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMcDXGkR8I

This is his reply
Quote:
I found this video honestly....disgusting, probably the best word to find for it. I watched the whole thing, don't get me wrong, I listened, and what I heard was praise on how this is a "revolution" and how it's going to tear down the government. I find it ironic because the OWS movement is divided into sectors of people who want anarchy, socialism, communism, death of bankers, more government regulation of the banking industry (which started the Housing Bubble and created the Finnancial Crisis by the way), no more Capitalism, or a strange mix of some or all of these. If this was campaign that didn't involve occupying public property, defacing public and private property, rape, violence, threatning to use violence to get what they want, or had a logical set of demands besides "Burning this mother fucking city to the ground." I would sympothize with it more. Croni-Capitalism is a real thing but is was created by Big Governemnt that over extended it's Constitutional powers by bailing out banks and corporations and creating a Lite American Facsim. Croni-Capitalism is not caused by Capitalism, again it is caused by Big Government tampering with Capitalism when it should not be involved in the free market. Instead OWS is blaming Capitalism, and the private sector and demand either anarchy or a bigger federal government with more regulation on the private sector, this is uneducated, unethical, and honestly idiotic in all senses of the word. Nothing positive will come from this movement, NOTHING. You want to make a difference you do it the Tea Party way and protest during the day and then go home and go to work the next day and get officials elected that support your cause, not impeded on individuals rights to use public property and safety by occupying and destroying public property and creating mass chaos. This movement will not last, it will not make a lasting impression, it is an astroturf movement created by the Candadian group Adbusters and now funded by Workers of the World Party, The American Communist Party, George Sorors, ect ect. Nothing positive will come from this, it will only breed more chaos and class warfare which breeds even more chaos.


I am getting extremely upset and kinda pissed off with him. I know that OWS stands for something good, I can feel it. The thing is, idk what the whole thing is really about, so I have no counter-argument to give, so I am forced to sit there and listen to his crap.

So I am asking those of you who are Occupy supporters, help enable me to formulate a counter argument.

**Edit: My orignial post was fueled by emotion, so I am sorry for that. I really would like to know about the OWS, and not just to "fight" him. My extreme apologies, I am slightly embarassed.Embarrased
Let the plants guide you, for they teach lessons beyond what we humans can offer.
Distorted is our perception of reality, because reality is much more distorted than we could ever perceive it to be.

All posts made by this username do not actually exist. They are hallucinations caused by the reception of light photons by the retinae of homo sapien sapien. You are already inside the rabbit hole.

Follow the path you have chosen, travelers, you will not regret the outcome, that I can assure you.
 
InMotion
Senior Member | Skills: 3D programming, Mathematician (if you need help with algebra to differential equations I'm available), SKilled Engineer
#2 Posted : 11/23/2011 3:20:34 AM
Let me get this straight. You want us, to tell your friend why he is 'wrong' when you don't know if he is 'wrong' using someone elses words? ... ... ...

...
...
...

P.S. you just announced to any fed how to find you're real name on face-book.
 
vovin
Senior Member | Skills: Prototype and Design Engineer amongst other things, Craftsman
#3 Posted : 11/23/2011 3:32:13 AM
Perception of reality appears to be the issue here. People perceive fact through their ego filter and how these facts are perceived and filtered effects how people see the world. This is why you see so many with odd fantastic views in our society. Take a atheist and a religions follower.

Rarely if ever will the 2 meet eye to eye because even though they both see the same facts their egos filter these in different manners to protect the psyche of the individual. If something contradicts the foundation of their reality swords are quickly drawn.
If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
 
tigerstrike92
#4 Posted : 11/23/2011 3:38:14 AM
InMotion wrote:
Let me get this straight. You want us, to tell your friend why he is 'wrong' when you don't know if he is 'wrong' using someone elses words? ... ... ...

...
...
...

P.S. you just announced to any fed how to find you're real name on face-book.



Any fed could find me if they wanted already. Also, that is not what I want. I just want some more information so I can formulate my own argument. Yes I could google around, but I really trust the opinions of different Nexians. I'm not asking for a word-for-word counter argument, just some information about the OWS movement, since I am lacking in that.
Let the plants guide you, for they teach lessons beyond what we humans can offer.
Distorted is our perception of reality, because reality is much more distorted than we could ever perceive it to be.

All posts made by this username do not actually exist. They are hallucinations caused by the reception of light photons by the retinae of homo sapien sapien. You are already inside the rabbit hole.

Follow the path you have chosen, travelers, you will not regret the outcome, that I can assure you.
 
a1pha
Moderator | Skills: Master hacker!
#5 Posted : 11/23/2011 3:39:56 AM
tigerstrike92 wrote:
I just want some more information so I can formulate my own argument.

I think you're hitting the very core of the problem with OWS.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." -A.Huxley
 
blue_velvet
#6 Posted : 11/23/2011 4:36:57 AM
I don't agree with the positions many of the OWS protestors take on the issues. I mean, I don't think taxing the rich and/or government regulation of the banking system is going to fix anything. The real value of the movement, in my opinion, is the horizontal structure of the movement coupled with intercity solidarity. It's really a premonition of how society should be modeled. However, I am an anarchist so this is a bit tendentious on my part.

As for your friend's thoughts on the matter, I am assuming he is a libertarian-capitalist, or at least something leaning towards it. He contends that "Croni-Capitalism is not caused by Capitalism,[...] it is caused by Big Government tampering with Capitalism when it should not be involved in the free market."

Many free-marketers claim laisse-faire capitalism is ideal. They equate capitalism with voluntary exchange of goods and services, taking for granted the private ownership of the means of production, and reason from the first principle of liberty and unquestionable property rights. Property is a legal fiction. It requires a government, and a violent one at that, to conserve its accumulation. This accumulation fosters inequality, creating class divisions, thus a fractured, corrupt system of government in which lobbyists play on these divisions. So there's that, I guess. The central bank manipulates our economy to benefit these banks anyway, so the debates over regulation/deregulation, higher/lower taxes mean nothing while it operates outside of congressional authority. I'm being tendentious again. I'll stop there.
 
open'nheart
#7 Posted : 11/25/2011 11:07:30 PM
the fact that people are coming together and having the kinds of conversations they are at ows is enough of a good reason to justify the movement. we are in desperate need of some serious changes in the way we as a species are engaging one another and the planet. this movement is a way for the people to come together to share information, gain support, and work toward positive change. this kind of networking is incredibly important. there is a lot of energy behind ows, that will spiral out in many directions, addressing many causes, whilst remaining unified as a movement for social and economic justice.
what we are shifting is the cultural paradigm, this process needs to be addressed in a variety of ways. no single leader or agenda can pull it off, which is why I appreciate the approach of the movement thus far. there is much to do, things are not okay, collectively witnessing that reality will make way for positive changes.
 
The Chr0nn01553ur
#8 Posted : 11/26/2011 12:11:06 AM
open'nheart wrote:
the fact that people are coming together and having the kinds of conversations they are at ows is enough of a good reason to justify the movement. we are in desperate need of some serious changes in the way we as a species are engaging one another and the planet. this movement is a way for the people to come together to share information, gain support, and work toward positive change. this kind of networking is incredibly important. there is a lot of energy behind ows, that will spiral out in many directions, addressing many causes, whilst remaining unified as a movement for social and economic justice.
what we are shifting is the cultural paradigm, this process needs to be addressed in a variety of ways. no single leader or agenda can pull it off, which is why I appreciate the approach of the movement thus far. there is much to do, things are not okay, collectively witnessing that reality will make way for positive changes.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Smile

These are beautiful times we're in, IMO, even if it has to get worse before it gets better.

Life is art.

Row row row your boat, gently down the stream... Merrily merrily merrily merrily...............

NOTE: 'The Chr0nn01553ur' IS A FICTIONAL ONLINE CHARACTER AT THE DMT-NEXUS.COM FORUMS. THAT MEANS ALL POSTS MADE BY THE CREATORS ARE STRICTLY FICTITIOUS IN NATURE, AND USED SOLELY AS PERSONALITY EXPERIMENTS FOR THEIR OWN AMUSEMENT AND REFINEMENT. ANY RESEMBLANCES TO REAL LIFE ARE PURELY COINCIDENTAL. We also tend to edit our posts 2-3 times within about 5 minutes after posting them.. Just a heads up.

 
The Day Tripper
#9 Posted : 11/26/2011 12:29:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/w...ture=channel_video_title
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
MelCat
#10 Posted : 11/26/2011 1:45:36 AM
There is a lot of misinformation floating around about what the Occupy Movement is and isn't.

I think it's best to hear it direct from the horses mouth.

Please visit the Declaration of Occupation from the NYC General Assembly site.

Here is a paste for posterity.

"Occupy Wall Street General Assembly wrote:
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011
Translations: French, Slovak, Spanish, German, Italian, Arabic, Portuguese
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
Convert a melodic element into a rhythmic element...
 
Heretic
#11 Posted : 11/26/2011 8:38:18 AM
This part is mostly correct, specifically the crony capitalism part:

Quote:
I found this video honestly....disgusting, probably the best word to find for it. I watched the whole thing, don't get me wrong, I listened, and what I heard was praise on how this is a "revolution" and how it's going to tear down the government. I find it ironic because the OWS movement is divided into sectors of people who want anarchy, socialism, communism, death of bankers, more government regulation of the banking industry (which started the Housing Bubble and created the Finnancial Crisis by the way), no more Capitalism, or a strange mix of some or all of these. If this was campaign that didn't involve occupying public property, defacing public and private property, rape, violence, threatning to use violence to get what they want, or had a logical set of demands besides "Burning this mother fucking city to the ground." I would sympothize with it more. Croni-Capitalism is a real thing but is was created by Big Governemnt that over extended it's Constitutional powers by bailing out banks and corporations and creating a Lite American Facsim. Croni-Capitalism is not caused by Capitalism, again it is caused by Big Government tampering with Capitalism when it should not be involved in the free market


And there are definitely those that want to enact more regulations to "fix" the problems... however this is not the right answer I do not believe. I am an internet and local occupier but first and foremost I am a libertarian, so while I do support the movement and that people are gathering and speaking, I also fear the very real threat of young patriots being misled into socialist ideologies that have been presented... particularly on the OWS forums. I have spent my time in my local occupy movement trying to educate others that the real way to "come together" is not through a socialist or communist style of government, but rather a lifestyle change that involves helping each other and sharing what we have in abundance as well as pro-active action when it comes to shaping and influencing politicians by using your voice. When we start treating each other as brothers and sisters then we can start evolving towards true liberty. I do not think one can exist without the other, that is a socialist view towards each other with a libertarian rule over all, that is a lack of rule to be clear.
When Injustice Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty
 
tigerstrike92
#12 Posted : 11/29/2011 2:50:11 AM
Thanks for the information everyone!

And thanks for the very helpful post Melodic!
Let the plants guide you, for they teach lessons beyond what we humans can offer.
Distorted is our perception of reality, because reality is much more distorted than we could ever perceive it to be.

All posts made by this username do not actually exist. They are hallucinations caused by the reception of light photons by the retinae of homo sapien sapien. You are already inside the rabbit hole.

Follow the path you have chosen, travelers, you will not regret the outcome, that I can assure you.
 
benzyme
Moderator | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertExtreme Chemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertChemical expert | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expertSenior Member | Skills: Analytical equipment, Chemical master expert
#13 Posted : 11/29/2011 3:01:32 AM
the occupy movement is a nice sentiment, but it's coffee break banter compared to what would've happened had the Fed not bailed out banks in '08.

http://abcnews.go.com/bl...ilout-bloomberg-reports/
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Apoc
#14 Posted : 11/29/2011 6:34:47 AM
vovin wrote:
Perception of reality appears to be the issue here. People perceive fact through their ego filter and how these facts are perceived and filtered effects how people see the world. This is why you see so many with odd fantastic views in our society. Take a atheist and a religions follower.

Rarely if ever will the 2 meet eye to eye because even though they both see the same facts their egos filter these in different manners to protect the psyche of the individual. If something contradicts the foundation of their reality swords are quickly drawn.


yes, and unfortunately, or fortunately, this just seems to be the way it is. Not right or wrong, but that's the way it is.
 
 
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