Somehow this seems relevant:

You may have heard the tale of the Buddhist monk who goes up to the hotdog seller and asks him to make him one with everything. But did you know, the hotdog seller handed the monk an empty bun and told him, "What you seek is already within you."

He still charged him a buck though

Thank you for stating this as you did. It's a good description that resonates well with me. Parts of the experience really do feel like "side-effects" often times.

I think for some this can come with the package of always wanting to expand awareness.

And negative things and experiences for me often have an attribute that makes a "good" joke a "good joke.:" staying power...



Speaking of good joke Thanks for that and the reminder

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Any idea where the feeling of wrongness comes from?
Is the aversion to any sort of good or good that is directed towards the self? Like, how do you define good here?

I think it comes from a few disparate sources that each can be subdivided into other separate aspects that effect the experience. One source would be my father. He liked to ruin a lot of things. Another source is the idea of Enlightenment and Transcendence that I came across and became very interested in in a broad sense in my teens. With this one in particular, something that always stood out among many different practices and descriptions is the idea of non-attachment, which as I've conceded to in the past I interacted with as detachment, and then became attached to the idea. That said, I didn't want to have attachment to good, and inadvertently detached myself from it in an attempt to not be attached to it. It's hard to let it in now.

The aversion is not uniform. If I'm used to something that I consider "good" and it's part of a habit, it's a bit easier to move passed the aversion. However, the more meaningful something is and the more passionate I am about it, the more difficult it is for me to allow myself the engagement. I think one thing that muddies this for me is my mutable perspective and being aware that many things aren't necessarily good or bad, but simply what they are and good or bad is best dictated by circumstance and context. That said, if I view something as "good" I assume that I am missing something because I may not be acknowledging a bias.

I think we can also say that by what I consider my honest thinking with myself, I have delimited and diminished the importance of my own perspectives, subjectivity, opinion, etc, which equates to a lack of self-trust.

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Do you blame your dad for ending up where you are now?
Why didn't you want to have attachment to good?
Like, what was so attractive about detachment for you?


I get this sense that good things come at a cost, that you cant really trust them, and that the better things are that just means that you are failing to see where the bad is.
Almost like they are waiting for you to let your guard down to show their ugly face.
Does that make any sense?

Something that I get from the way you write is certantly "detachment", though it feels more like "separation" to me.
And Im sure there is a lot of genuine love for philosophy and spirituality, but it also sounds like you might have used some of it as a coping mechanism, and btw if that resonates, Im not blaming you for it, its totally fine.


How does it feel to have your own pespective, subjectivity and opinions diminished?

Whatever the feeling is, Im sure it also feels familiar.

Not particularly, no, likely because I've desired a fair amount of autonomy since childhood. I do blame him for his actions, past and present, that have and do have negative impact on myself and others and for certain traumas that were a result of some interaction with him, but not for where I am now. I could, but I don't. Even if it were something that we could say is true, it's not as true as the fact that I have to take action to better myself. What's done is done.



To paraphrase from the above, it was perceived in many philosophies and practices that attachment detracts from Enlightenment/Transcendence. To be fair, some describe me as an intense person, and I may have taken this idea too far, too seriously, too literally, etc.

Also, if able to maintain that state, there's not really much you have to worry about counting on...



I think this is one good way to put it and it sums some aspects of this up.



I spent many years misappropriating "non-attachment" for "detachment," which are very different, though related, and yes I would say has led to "separation" which I may be prone to because I've experienced states and senses of deep separation throughout my life.

Can you elaborate more on your observation on how I may use those topics as coping mechanisms? It's not that I disagree, I just want to make sure I am understanding you. I would definitely say my attraction towards the ideals of Enlightenment/Transcendence could've been kinds of coping mechanisms. If I aim to be as selfless as possible, without bias, etc, then I don't have to worry about myself, or my healing and/or traumas, right? If there's nothing to attach too, then there's nothing to be hurt by, right? Impractical. Errors of thinking. We live and we learn. It's just hard to change much of this.



That's a loaded question . With how I've done it to myself, it feels honest, even though I am also left at a loss in some regards. With regards to other people (such as my father, or peers in social situations), it can make me feel undervalued, unheard, inferior, etc. While there's a different felt sense in both of these perspectives of this facet of the topic, they are intertwined and can very likely be connected to experiences when I was younger. I shouldn't allow noticing my own limits lead to a devaluing of my perspective, subjectivity, opinions, etc.

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Its hard to pinpoint anything specific, thats just how it feels to me.
The clearest example is the detachment one, the self has a tendency to find ways to separate from itself, but why does the self want to hide?
I assume because you dont actually want to be you, if we take a microscope and look deep down within you I imagine we actually see a sense of total lack of self worth, you know this because your opinions dont matter, your perspectives dont matter, you dont matter, you are fundamentally invalid.
Why would you want to be you?

The same might manifest in terms of working on yourself, on "becoming better", a sort of "excuse" to not be you.

Hijacking might be a better word than cope, where certain underlaying feelings hide behind increasingly complex intellectual/behavioral structure, or attach themselves to "good things" like non-attachment or self-work.

Thats how I see it anyways, you tell me if that resonates with you.
Those comments are slightly inflamatory on purpose, if those feelings are actually down there we
want to bring them to the surface so they dont stay there controlling your life forever.



Thats interesting, I was expecting there to be some amount of resenment towards the self for treating yourself the same way your dad/peers have.
Not sure what to make of this.



Why?

I think you deserve to be able to devalue your own experience.

As a result of trauma as well as what I regularly deal with, I would say that this is definitely a facet and parameter of my experience.

However...


Some of what you have observed in regards to the hijacking mechanisms is that my interaction with some of these concepts is authentic and removed from such mechanistic functions.

Which isn't to say that there isn't any resentment at all with myself...



Well of course, it's my experience to do what I wish with it, right? However, while I am not my experience, beliefs, thoughts, etc., it seems that in devaluing my own perspective and position, I extend that devaluing to myself. So if I am going to move away from this "affliction" should I not instead value those things?

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Yep, I imagine there is a lot of authenticity in there.

How would it feel if you were to not work on yourself anymore? If you were to stop trying to let good things in, if you were to stop trying to value yourself, if you were to stop bettering yourself?

I'm not sure. But my initial thought is I may not want to be alive moreso than I already feel.

And I don't say that to raise any alarms. I'm having a pretty hard morning so am simply blunt.

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At this time, I'd like to thank everyone, from the bottom of my heart, for all of the support, insight, understanding, and attempts at understanding. In this thread and others. I'm clearly incompetent to do so myself, so it's greatly appreciated.

Since I feel like I'm always having a hard time with this kind of stuff, and I've shared so much, feelings of being pitiful, weak, stale, come up strongly. I'm trying to tell myself that it's not shameful...

This thread has been helpful however in allowing me to remove myself from some of the internal mechanisms that I felt too trapped in to be able to see how I truly treat and view myself. It's opened up a lot... I'm prone to finding reasons to bring myself down, finding reasons why some things that are positive may not be the case, how I devalue myself, seeing my desires as wrong, viewing my emotionality as wrong etc. I can also see its ubiquity in my mind.

And perhaps with my mental health issues I'm predisposed to this kind of thinking.

All the same, it's also put me in a very gloomy, dour, and sad place/state. I feel like it's a necessary section of the path that must be tread in order to grow and heal through this. But nothing about it feels good at this time.

Going to try and be good to myself today... Will go to the gym after posting this because I enjoy working out and it's good for my mind. Haven't been sleeping well and am tired, so will relax without worrying about things I feel I need to or should be doing. Just allow myself to be, without any pressure. If something comes up to do, then will try to just go with the flow. And I hope to be able to get myself to smoalk a little changa. Why deprive myself of something that helps me tremendously in times and states such as these? I probably won't go too far, since the reason I break through accidentally only is not trusting myself. So it'll be simply therapeutic unless I'm feeling otherwise in the moment, then I will try to allow myself more.

Thank you all again. I'm hoping I can talk about this less here for a while...



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