I am wondering if it is necessary I convert my bufotenine fumarate into freebase and vaporize everytime or if I could administer the fumarate crystals rectally or nasally successfully? I dont mind the conversion just wondering if these salts can be used in their current form at all. Thank you for any advice.
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Extract from a post of 69ron like 10 years ago: Quote:Alkaloids absorb best when the nose pH is at or higher than the pKa of the alkaloid. For bufotenine, that’s a pH close to 9.6 or above.
They also absorb best if the nose is slightly burned by a strong base. The lesions caused by the strong base allow the alkaloid better access into the blood stream.
I hate to say it, but calcium hydroxide is the best for use with snuff made from seeds. That’s why the shamans use it.
The burn from it helps the alkaloids absorb better by causing very small lesions in the tissues in the nose.
It’s used for betel nut for the same reason. It both freebases and causes lesions.
It’s water solubility is very low so it stays in the nose for a long time without dissolving, keeping the nose pH alkaline for a long time giving the alkaloids more time to dissolve as freebase. That’s one of it’s big advantages.
Don’t use sodium carbonate. SWIM tried using sodium carbonate and put a little too much.
Although it’s a little weaker of a base than calcium hydroxide (lime), it burns like crazy because it’s much more water soluble and dissolves right into your nose really fast.
You’ll have a sore nose for a few days if you put a little too much. Calcium hydroxide is a stronger base but because it’s far less water soluble, it takes a long time to dissolve and so the pain is much less than that felt from sodium carbonate.
Also because the sodium carbonate dissolves so rapidly, it doesn’t keep the nose pH alkaline for very long, meaning the alkaloids have less time to dissolve as freebase. Once all the base is gone, the remaining alkaloids start forming salts right in the nose.
That’s not good. The salt forms don’t absorb well at all and have more side effects because of it.
Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is a different compound from sodium carbonate. It’s a much weaker base and not very effective for snuff.
It doesn’t cause any lesions and doesn’t freebase enough of the bufotenine. It’s also too water soluble so it quickly dissolves in the nose, meaning the freebased alkaloids have much less time to dissolve as freebase and start forming salts in the nose.
Ammonia can freebase all the bufotenine easily. It won’t work well for snuff because it evaporates away and doesn’t cause lesions in the nose.
Because it evaporates away, it doesn’t keep the nose alkaline long enough for all the alkaloids to absorb as freebase, so much of them start forming salts in the nose.
However, ammonia is great for producing a smokeable snuff because it all evaporates; and when smoking the alkaloids, you don’t need to worry about keeping the lungs alkaline because the freebase alkaloids absorb really fast into the blood stream via the lungs.
Calcium carbonate (not to be confused with calcium hydroxide or sodium carbonate) might work pretty well without burning your nose.
Like calcium hydroxide (lime) it’s water solubility is very low so it stays in the nose for a long time without dissolving, keeping the nose pH at about 9.8 for a long time allowing all the alkaloids to eventually freebase and get absorbed as freebase.
But it doesn’t cause lesions like calcium hydroxide does, and so it will take longer for the alkaloids to absorb. This should slow down the trip’s onset and also make the effects a little weaker. So it’s a trade off.
But because all the alkaloids will absorb as freebase, the effects should be virtually the same as if one used calcium hydroxide, only a little weaker with a slower onset.
When snuffing pure freebase bufotenine, using a base like calcium hydroxide helps it absorb faster and prevents it from salting in the nose. But its not that necessary as it is with whole seed snuff because the amount of material is so small that it absorbs at a much faster rate than whole seed snuff does.
But it still makes a noticeable difference. If you mix the bufotenine with a little calcium hydroxide, it will absorb faster, be a little more visual, and have less side effects. SWIM has tried snorting pure bufotenine with calcium carbonate instead of calcium hydroxide. It is nearly as effective and doesn’t burn much. Bufotenine itself burns the nose a little tiny bit but calcium carbonate doesn’t. The mix of calcium carbonate and bufotenine actually burns less than pure bufotenine does. I’m not sure why. But the effects are identical to those felt from mixing calcium hydroxide with the pure bufotenine, only the onset is a little shorter, and the effects are a little weaker, but not much. Long story and also talking about adding additional bases, but the main answer regarding Salt form vs Freebase form is also adressed. Bufotenine is an already very polar compound compared to any other drugs (ok not alcohol / GHB). This may already highly prevent the transition of the blood-brain-barrier. Being a salt it may be nearly impossible to pass any mucous membranes, which will be a common obstacle during physiological pathways. Therefore it may sound reasonable that any Bufo salt will just be blocked on its way and secreted out of body via kidneys very fast. Buuuuut 69ron also talks about Bufotenine oral activity in other posts somewhere deep and he did not mention using stomach-acid-resistant capsules. So when eating Bufotenine straight away it would become a salt in the stomach anyways. This makes me wonder, as 69ron told that there is indeed a Bufotenine oral activity, which will then also be a Bufotenine salt oral activity. Sadly I have still not tried my preweighted 200 mg Harmala + 100 mg Bufotenine dose, sitting around here. That should at least answer the question for me, regarding oral activity of Bufotenine, that was exposed to gastric acid, forming it to a salt. Maybe just try yourself with a lower dose to check activity? 70 mg nasal ingestion should give strongly noticable effects.
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I only have experience with yopo and not with pure bufotenin, but i can say that yopo mixed with edible lime is also very active when taken sublingually.
And it doesn't realy cause any pain then.
While the nose is very delicate and very sensitive, so i don't see the reason for taking it intranasally if you can also just put it under the tongue.
I totally believe that intranasal use is painfull and causes lesions: when i take it sublingually, it causes the mouth to bleed.
I think it is relevant here, to say that yopo that is not mixed with edible lime, is also very active when smoked.
I suppose freebase bufo is much more active, but as a salt, bufo definately IS active.
Vaporising freebase bufotenin is probably the best way of using it. Smoked yopo that isn't even freebased comes on faster and stronger than freebased yopo taken sublingually, so as a base it will be even much more powerfull when smoked.
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Please keep me posted on your 200mg harmala and 100mg bufo trip. What is your technique for sublingual ingestion dragonrider? Would it hypothetically be best to soak up the bufo with a little water and hold under the tongue? Also i read about how to create conditions favoring bufotenine fumarate di-salt but can no longer locate that info so would either of you know?
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I don't know for pure bufotenin, but what i do with yopo is: i mix some powdered seeds with edible lime, in a more or less 50/ratio. Then i add some water, mix it some more, and let it dry. I then crush the rocky stuff into a more powdery substance.
If i put a teaspoon of this under my tongue, the effects will start to come after a few minutes. I make sure not to swallow anything.
This is usually something i do when i'm already tripping on something.
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Quote:Would it hypothetically be best to soak up the bufo with a little water and hold under the tongue? I would not even use water. Just place it directly below the tongue. I did not have success with this btw. So much saliva collecting in my mouth, but you are not allowed to swallow anything. Maybe it can be done when holding your head backwards all the time, so the Bufo is still below your tongue, but all the saliva is collected in the back of your mouth and you can easy swallow it, without touching the Bufo. But you would have to keep that state for quite some minutes   Quote:Also i read about how to create conditions favoring bufotenine fumarate di-salt but can no longer locate that info so would either of you know? As far as I know the Di-Salt is always formed when the FASA is added slowly. And by slowly I mean: Just not threwn everything in at once. Any particular reasons why you want to be sure to have the Di-salt? Regarding extraction you are just good to go by adding the FASA over ~ 1 minute to your Alkaloid mixture. Also Mono-salt should have just the same shelf life. Maybe there is a bit difference in solubility, but in general both are water soluble, maybe the Di-salt is just a bit more soluble, not causing any difference for all conventional uses.
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I wanted to make the di salt because if 2 bufotenine molecules bind to 1 fumaric acid molecule then my fumaric acid goes farther. I was interested in the sublingual route but gave up after unsuccessful experiences I am still interested in the roa just not sure how long you must hold it under your tongue.
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With yopo it is at least a few minutes. I always spit it out right when the full effects start to kick in.
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So I ate 100 mg of Harmalas + 50 mg of Bufotenine, but the effect was not really strong. As Jonathan Ott said 100 mg Bufotenine without Harmalas would be just psychoactive, maybe 50 mg with Harmalas is a little low. I never had the feeling that Harmalas potentiated anything. More only that they prolonged or dilated any effect.
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If I convert 100mg of bufotenine fumarate to freebase what will be the equivalent weight of bufotenine freebase?
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observe wrote:If I convert 100mg of bufotenine fumarate to freebase what will be the equivalent weight of bufotenine freebase? {You'd have to know whether you're dealing with the fumarate or the bifumarate. A molecule of fumaric acid can combine with either one or two molecules of a tryptamine freebase. You'd also need to know whether there is any water of crystallisation present. Recent reports suggest that both DMT and 5-MeODMT crystallise as the bifumarate - which means a 1:1 ratio of base to fumarate - whereas the so-called 'normal' fumarate (2:1 base to fumarate ratio) refuses to crystallise nicely. Without being too bold, we can make the assumption that bufotenine might behave in a similar fashion. Reasonably crystalline material is likely to be the bifumarate.} [EDIT: it seems that you broadly grasp this already!] To keeps things simple it's probably ok to assume you don't have a hydrated form either. The worst this will do is give you a lower yield than expected if it turns out to be incorrect. The riffmuttick: [mass(bufo.fum)×MW(bufoFB)]÷[MW(bufoFB)+MW(fuma)] = mass(bufoFB) In your case, mass(bufo.fum) = 100mg as stated. You can look up the MW values for bufotenine freebase and fumaric acid  “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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What is mw an abbreviation for? Thank you for the help. It is not hydrated after decanting off the acetone I had a real gooey clump I added water to that then put it in the sun on a very hot day. It dried to a thin crystalline sheet and I scraped it up into a slightly waxy red crystalline powder. Best fasa yet quite proud.
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observe wrote:What is mw an abbreviation for? Thank you for the help. It is not hydrated after decanting off the acetone I had a real gooey clump I added water to that then put it in the sun on a very hot day. It dried to a thin crystalline sheet and I scraped it up into a slightly waxy red crystalline powder. Best fasa yet quite proud. MW= Molecular Weight It's so satisfying to get a nice precipitate! Did you add only enough fumaric acid for the 2:1 (normal) bufo fumarate? If you reasonably suspect this to be the case it's worth doing also the calculation for that salt form, by using only half the MW of fumaric acid ["MW(fuma)"]. Sunlight damages some of these kinds of molecules, I hope it's OK. “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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Bufotenine is quite heat resistant (dont know about UV) and the fumarate is a tough form of these alkaloids, I also only left it out for just under 2 hours. I took an equal amount of acetone to the acetone I got from my pulls and dropped a large scoop of fumaric acid into it and let it sit for a day or 2. Not all of the fumaric acid dissolved so I assumed it was saturated.
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bufo: 204.273 g·mol−1 fuma: 116.072 g·mol−1 so, 100mg bufo 2fuma contains [mass(bufo 2.fum)× 2×MW(bufoFB)]÷[ 2×MW(bufoFB)+MW(fuma)] = (100×2×204.273)/(2×204.273+116.072)mg bufotenine, i.e.40854.6/524.618 = 77.875mg freebase. The way I've shown it here, the MW of bufotenine on the 'top' of the equation (now shown in bold) needed to be doubled as well on the 'bottom', because 524.6mg of fumarate would contain 408.5mg of bufotenine freebase. [This is, of course, functionally identical with halving the value for fumaric acid.] “There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work." ― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
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