No, it's a salvia thread on a DMT board. I think a comparison based on personal experience is perfectly valid.

As for me, I'm not really concerned about the subjective effects of any substance in this thread, but the prevailing attitude. As gibran pointed out, people die of many things all the time, especially from the effects of alcohol. Not many people step up and say they want to rid the world of alcohol and make people afraid by use of force against those who drink. People don't the big picture. And the real picture I am concerned about is the idea that if people have a stance against something, they can just ban things and to hell with reason and seeing the big picture. To me, the issue is fundamental freedom, which I wish the public would support, and I feel they should support because North American countries supposedly hold freedom as their core value. Others don't see this issue because only a small percentage of the population has even tried salvia. But if people were threatening to take away some they love, something that is important to them, then they'd be up in arms. They'll gripe as if it's the end of the world if they have to pay 20 bucks extra a year in taxes, but if the government hires people to point guns and completely strip herb users of all freedom, they'll turn a blind eye.

No, it's a salvia thread on a salvia board on a DMT board. I have nothing against your comparison.
I am saying that Salvia is not a stupid drug.

And it is dangerous to smoke any hallucinogen near a balcony.

Its almost a mathematical certainty that with any substance, given enough time, there will be cases of things going south -and here i am not refering only to psychoactives, i am sure that someone,somewhere in the depth of human history might have directly or indirectly died of salt,vaseline or...rhubarb!

I certainly do not like what the media does, but thats what they do: "does the story sell? well, write it, give the people what they want!". That unfortunately means that a story about a drunk driver getting killed without any extra drama is not going to make first page, whereas death because a "happy person" jumped of a balcony on an "exotic drug" sounds much more like it. Also, generally notice the language used in such articles which more or less is sensationalist, tries to bring the subject home (for example "he was a happy man" -read: it can happen to you even if you are happy!!!! , or "a straight A, outgoing student" -read : it can happen to your vanilla son!!!!). I think now its a time to also reread the online articles on the whole Brett chidester story and try to spot similarities.

As far as the parent's comments are concerned, while i do not agree with them im in the rather fortunate situation to be more calm and "coldheaded" than them at the moment since this did not happen in my family. Up to a point i can understand them, having just lost someone they love and thinking the poisonous "what if's" ("what if he didnt smoke this herb?" , "what if it was illegal". Also think that those people might be "antidrug" or up to now have had no interest in drugs, thinking "psychoactives" was some obscure European country . Well, in that case i would expect the demonisation..."What you never thought was going to be YOUR problem, now has taken its toll on your family" kind of mentality...But as i said, i do not think that fear is the answer.

On another note, letting the cynic bastard in me manifest, local headshops or herbshops are going to have quite of a day! Propably many people going to buy it either as a "wow, its powerful, ok i ll just not smoke it at my balcony" or as a "its going down, its up for grabs, so lets stock on it".

Anyway i think thats the fate of most psychoactive substances except the ones already incorporated officialy at the societal norms. They get judged unevenly compared to pharmaceuticals or legal recreational substances.On one hand its a legal issue on the other its societal : somehow it seems to many more "acceptable" to die of an alcohol related incident than of one related to something more exotic/illegal/labeled as a "recreational drug".

What one can do? well propably one could voice their opinion on the website or even send them a well written email, i wonder if that will help. The "last word" is more or less always the word of the newspaper: for example if tox shows that he was on other drugs as well for example alcohol, fluoxetine, xanax they might simply not write about it and it would be -for public opinion- as if salvia was the sole perpertrator. If they do this it wont be because of vice towards salvia but because it...sells better this way.

I wonder when (I guess never ) people will stop adding moral values and personality characteristics to inanimate objects.

Good points Crystalito. At some point, someone has died of everything, and at some point, there has probably been a push to ban just about everything, including alcohol. I guess we just have to ride the waves of the issue of the day and deal with things the best we can.

I absolutely understand where the parents are coming from when they say, "sometimes the only way to stop people is to make them afraid". I understand they are grief ridden, etc. However, I hope an average person is more clear thinking than that. Grief ridden people can have extreme views, they can be out for blood. Extreme views can be very dangerous. People overcome with grief might have the attitude, "I got hurt, so now I'm going to go out there and smash heads and hurt anyone who gets in my way".

I read a story last year about a young person who fell off a cliff and died. Drugs weren't reported to be involved, he wasn't suicidal. It was just some young guy who got too close to a cliff and slipped. The grief and anger of the parents was palpable in the article written about the story. The parents were mad at the city. They said the city didn't do a good enough job of blocking the cliff area, and there was a visible path with old broken strairs that led to the cliff, and how could they let this happen? There was a concrete barrier in front of the stairs, but the parents said the stairs looked too inviting for people. The parents were determined to not let this happen again. They said they were going to take a hammer to the stairs themselves and smash the stairs to bits if it's the last thing they do.

While I understand the parents frustration and grief, I have to realize that not the staircase, nor the cliff was the enemy. Sometimes people just slip up. If people, for whatever reason, have the desire to go and stand near a cliff, they are going to do it. You can educate people until the end of time on how dangerous cliff might be, and some will still choose to stand near cliffs, and most won't fall over, but some will. The person who fell over the cliff didn't walk up to that cliff because he thought it was safe. Sometimes people just slip up and die, and you can smash all the staircases in the world or blame anyone in the world, and people are STILL going to die. Luckily, in this particular case, the parents were only blaming a staircase for their son's death. They weren't blaming a group of people or wanting to smash people with a hammer, but you could see how that could easily be the case, when one is overcome with grief. So my point is that it is counterproductive to demonize a group of people in the name of grief. Criminalizing salvia users would only cause a lot more suffering in response to an isolated death incident, an incident which can happen to anyone at any time who goes near high places.

I also agree that there should be more control over the sale of salvia, and education about its effects. But criminalizing people is not an appropriate response.

Hi clouds, you may want to learn to interpret words like you would art, or music.
so, if I say salvia is about as good as dropping a pair of scissors on my toes, you can argue the opposite all you want but it's not going to change my opinion:
Salvia is bunk.

History repeats itself. Powerful drugs and balcony departures have occurred since EVEN BEFORE their debut. Hell, even the construction workers fell to their dooms (Well documented on buildings like the Empire State Building) who knows what those old school cats were on???

Gibran2 hit the nail on the head. People die every single day from alcohol and tobacco. One single death that is INDIRECTLY related to anything even remotely psychedelic is completely demonized, misunderstood, blatantly propagandized and laser burnt to be evil in the massive brainwashed minds of the dumb.

I'd say I was in disbelief but there is an emotion that goes beyond this that is yet to be defined...at least to my knowledge...

This talks more about you than it does about Salvia. Basic psychology.

To each his own.


Darwin's Lesson of the Day:

Educate yourself before taking mind-altering substances. (E.g., salvia and balconies don't mix)

It's really unfortunate that events like this have to occur at all. psychedelics already have been misunderstood and demonized by the media for years already. Cases like this only add fuel to the fire.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but please people... Let's be careful and not have an event like this happen to any of us spice smokers out there. We really don't need anymore unwanted attention.

I'm sure most people on this board have a lot more common sense than to be so foolish as to smoke out on the 15th floor of a balcony anyway!!

At least I hope so...

Simple accurate information. Basic education, prevents more deaths than any propaganda, rules, and regulations ever will.

That's a massive slap in the face, and an ignorance I'd expect to find in the article about the guy who jumped, not coming from a member that often has insightful views. I can understand if you don't enjoy it how it can be a disorienting and quit unpleasant experience, but to call it stupid and bunk is a massive disrespect to all of those who have had it's healing cathartic properties shown in full.


Either way this guy probably had absolutely no idea what he was getting into. I can already hear the war drams of prohibition pounding away in New York.

First of all,

I think we all should take a brief moment out of our agendas and have some compassion. It would be wonderful to send some unconditional love towards the unfortunate young man who carelessly lost control of his mind and did the unthinkable. Ignorance is not the crime that we are conditioned to believe it is. Who knows what his experience was, just seconds before he jumped?

I strongly feel that we ought to show some kindness, despite how his 'stupidity' affects the rest of our lives and our access to this Sacred herb. If Salvia Divinorum is completely banned, from some of the dangerous talk transpiring theses days, it would be a pity. I will personally take a moment to pray for this boy's troubled family and wish him well on his journey homeward.



Stupid? Bunk? I am speechless ( a rare occurrence).

For myself... it has been both, frightening and most illuminating. Were I to label it with any negative associations or criticism, I would say it is: dissociative, disphoric or even painfully disorienting at times. It would naive to proclaim it is not also: insightful, provocative and most enlightening (when used in a way which heals our broken spirit).

Regardless of our condemnations or affirmations about Lady Salvia, a boy is dead and we will all have to answer for this tragic mishap, as it does not bode well for the emancipation of any psychedelic usage.

That just about sums it up.

I knew this thread would get heated, but guys, have some respect. Personal opinions aside, Salvia can and does help some people who use it responsibly. I'm in total agreement with Rising Spirit.

Yes, as much as this story upsets me my heart goes out to him and his family... very much so! I'm sure the last thing this young man wanted was to be the poster boy of the salvia propaganda to come.

It's sad but it seems too many young people are misguided to thinking salvia is some kind of "party drug". Posting immature videos of themselves at parties on youtube, stumbling and falling all over the place. People need to better educate themselves on basic safety before putting ANYTHING unfamiliar into there bodies. Unfortunately it will most likely be banned in New York soon as it's been other places already.


R.I.P.
Ryan Santanna

Why not just make balconies illegal instead? I'm sure that more than one person has died on a balcony in New York before, whereas only one person has died using salvia on balcony. So it seems to me that the balconies should be considered the culprit instead of the saliva. Just make them illegal, and then this will never happen again!

elphologist

Ive read a million stories about a million people jumping or falling to their death while drunk and it doesnt make anyone bat an eyelid or call for alcohol to be banned but because salvia isn't a huge business like the alcohol industry it is demonised ofr a single tragic one off event. Humans are stupid!!

I wonder how many people have died from cigarettes and alcohol around the world since this thread was started, opposed to the amount of people who have died from salvia.

But we know which substance will be the one they criminalize first.
What a twisted fucked up world!

My feelings also. I'm still moving forward, bad news or not.
This guy was some sort of film/art student. He might have had some great ideas re salvia D.

Humans are a stupid, bunk drug. Humans are illegal in most dimensions and for good reason. Not a lot of salvians like humans.