I understand where Dorge is coming from, but I can't say I precisely agree. If the proposed law simply outlawed the commercial sale of the plant, that would be one thing (not that I would explicitly support it, but I wouldn't be terribly vehement in opposing it); it would certainly decrease the misguided attempts to use the plant recreationally (personally, I'm not opposed to the recreational use of drugs... but salvia just doesn't lend itself well to recreation, and the negative press it receives is invariably a result of people trying to use it in that manner). And I don't believe that eliminating commercial distribution would create a black market for this particular plant (though I could be wrong... and if I am, then I would have to oppose the criminalization of commercial distribution more strongly)

But I simply cannot abide any law that would make possession, cultivation/manufacture, and non-commercial distribution (sharing the plant with other interested persons) illegal. As Dioxippus says, this could result in peoples' lives being destroyed as a result of their personal, benign, and sincere use of the plant. This is simply not acceptable.

I think the key here is education. If drug education was honest and teenagers consequently trusted the authority furnishing the information, then they might be more inclined to believe that salvia is not at all like cannabis, and it's not a fun way to catch a buzz when bored. It's a very powerful experience which some people find they can integrate productively when used with intention... but most people just find bizarre, not particularly pleasant, and generally don't feel compelled to use it again once they've grasped the nature of the experience. It's my personal belief that this ambivalence or aversion has a great deal to do with cultural context, and if people were raised to regard salvia with respect as a source of otherworldly inspiration to be used only with explicit intention, then they would probably be more inclined to accept the experience on its own terms. But that's just my own take on it, and there is not a tremendous amount of evidence to support that claim.

Oh dear, it seems I've missed some recent news on Salvia. According to this article, from October 2010, Salvia Divinorum is already technically illegal to sell in Canada. The article states, "the federal government says products containing salvia divinorum and its active ingredient, salvinorin A, are considered natural health products and, as such, must be authorized by Health Canada before they can be sold." I don't know when the federal government took the stance that salvia is a "natural health product" and thus needs to be approved by Health Canada... but that's what the article claims. Has it always been that way, or have they only claimed it recently? Don't know. But the article says Health Canada has just been letting the technicality slide until now.

Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean salvia should be schedule III, and illegal to buy, sell, posess, or grow, punishable by up to 10 years in prison! Just because Health Canada doesn't approve of Salvia being sold as a "natural health product" doesn't atutomatically mean salvia becomes a schedule III substance! I really hope salvia does not become scheduled, but stricter guidelines for its selling are almost certain to follow, which I am perfectly fine with..... as long as it's not illegal for a grown ass person to make an individual choice to possess it. Salvia doesn't necessarily have to be labelled as "natural health product". I wonder what cigarettes are classified as? I doubt Health Canada approves of cigs, yet they are sold.

So, any suggestions what should be new ways of controlling its selling? I'd like suggest to the people in charge alternatives to scheduling the drug and making criminals out of innocent people. Thanks.

Thank you, Entropy, it's the morality of the issue. Good peoples lives could potentially be destroyed by these laws. Dorge seems to just take the attitude, "meh, I assume it won't happen to me, so whatever".

This is a great article...
http://www.evolver.net/u..._stations_de_flowering_v

And entropy I get what your saying and I agree but we both know we are far far away from a social climate where we can have legal hallucinogens. The reports make that pretty clear. I also agree that education is very important at this point in the game. But a lot of people keep going back a grade instead of graduating it would seem. A lot has o change socially before we can mass market somthing s powerful s salvia. Or lets say perhaps we have to stop mass marketing before salvia can be legally available.

We have a lot of work to do.

This is hard to understand.
Salvia has 0 cases of fatalities directly related to the physical effects (that I'm aware of), less addictive than vitamin C, and some isolated case of a suicidal person that sounds like he had other issues going on so tried using salvia to escape reality.
Why is this considered a threat to society? I'm offended by the ignorance in that article!
What about all the deaths caused directly from alcohol abuse, and indirectly from drunk driving? Surely this is much more a threat to the youth and general public than salvia?

So some teens like to get high and post youtube videos of themselves on salvia, I can probably find hundreds of videos of drunk teens acting just as stupid if I tried. When will the world realize prohibition just makes things worse for EVERYONE?
Tax it, regulate it, whatever needs to be done. Prohibition only ignores the issue entirely, and in most cases creates new problems alongside.


I'd say ID required upon purchase to prove person is an adult. Also if it is not approved as a natural health product, labels of "Not for human consumption" mandatory with all packages. People still like to make incense you know

Interesting. While I don't see the situation as a win/win as Dorge puts it, I concur with the realism of his view. I'm a pessimist, so. Entropy, as sound as your post is, I just don't see the governments agreeing to what you want. I don't see them giving off an honest message, because then they might have to do it with pot, and alcohol too, or even LSD.

Dorge makes good points, once something like salvia goes underground, it's safeguarded by people who actually care. On the other hand, I cannot for the life of me understand actually banning plants. I was reading about Kratom today, and how Thailand in 1943 declared the plant illegal and demanded destruction of all crops. This kind of thinking in the human gene pool is fucking gross.

The thing is, if cactus, not it's alkaloids, were illegal, would that be something the people were still able to work with? 'Ah yes sir, there are 9 multi foot spiked cactus here, wait... wait, there's more in the back...'

I guess to me I worry about it being a worldwide problem. Maybe not for us, but for our kids. Of what advantage is there down the line if and when they turn up the heat on all drug users? I mean, countries have declared 'war' on us, THEY have the RIGHTS to kick in your door based on tips and smells and suspicions. I guess we can all move to where the grass is greener, if we want to, but will it remain that way?

I think more than education, we need social, cultural change. I'm not hip to the idea of people running around in break rooms, talking about their last big 'trip' like some grand adventure, but we have to find a casualness to our consciousness exploration. We are the ones that feel and seek different experiences than most, and THEY (state) will prosecute us for that. Either we can help them see the power and the care involved in these substances, our they can try and steam roll us. Which do you think is more likely?

I prefer to stay out of politics. No matter how f'd up they are. Look out for myself, but it hurts to think of others, less fortunate. I'll see if I can add something to the other thread seeking research data.

On the contrary, if salvia can be made illegal, what's next? Where is the line drawn?
Currently it's free for everyone to enjoy salvia as they wish over in Canada, those who care and those who are just looking for the newest high. If it's made illegal precautions will have to be made by those who care to protect themselves. Sure it will take it out of the hands of teens getting "fucked up" but is it really worth the trade?

This is why it will be made illegal, because people like Lavos and Dorge don't give a shit (no offense). The majority of people don't give a shit enough to write letters and be heard. This plant helps, more than anything I've ever tried, to alleviate my severe depression. So to abide by the law I would have to stop growing and ingesting this non-toxic, non-addictive plant and turn to nasty pharmaceuticals (which have never helped me in the past anyway).

I'll be writing my letter, but if they choose not to listen, I will choose not to listen. If I get arrested and charged because I refuse to listen to a law that makes no sense, so be it.

No Offense? Piss off (no offense....)
We do give a shit... We just see that there are bigger problems that have to be addressed systemicly instead ofmtaking the reactionary pose. There are bigger fish to fy. Personally I am seriously offended by the level of disrespect Towards this plant of the mazatecs and how it is mass produced and marketed.
This plant will be available to those that Truely need, love and respect it.

Look I care, just from a different position. I understand the evils and see myself change bit by bit from what I see. But I suppose I see the problem differently. This is a problem of people? Or government?

Though people could do well to understand this plant, much better, seminars? fliers? tv commercials pleading? I dunno. I see it as a state problem. It exists to support itself. IMO, we are facing/approaching a one world structure, or at least a group of snakes and swine that through money and consumerism hope to own most all our asses. Salvia does not fit into that plan. (if you believe these ideas are delusional, I'm sorry, I don't dig up conspiracies everyday, but I've read enough to feel duped on so many levels) Our higher power is now the government, (before was the priesthood?) and they want a reason to have us under the gun. Why were marijuana and DMT outlawed? Because of their deadly potential? Scare mongering? So the problem is the scare mongering, or it's effects on the people? (Im just asking aloud here, as I know it's a bit of both)

It is shitty, but some people should know, that others have no desire or care to become involved in politics. The consequences can be gross, and I don't like to see another fellow stepped on, but is what it is. It's just because politics are so far removed from who/what I am. *Argh*, I'm looking for a quote, I'll find it later. Basically says outlaws just can't imagine living to another person's rules. There are no rules in life for us, at least none that we would bend to. I'm already in a coffin with my drugs, they can decorate and add to it what they want.

Marijuana change is happening in some places. If I accredit it to the bulk of people who have pushed and supported it, then it's an injustice for me to sit completely idle on this salvia ban. The least I can do is write a letter, and talk to some people about it. This is what I might do. But my view remains that they will 'schedule' us and herd us one way or another, as long as it's us and them mentality. As I said originally, we need social, cultural change most, imo.

How many people in this thread write letters about and dig up info for the natives who wish to chew their cocoa leaves in Bolvia and surrounding? Anyone? Note the leaders there ARE fighting for it's use, yet at the same time destroying acres of it. And who are they to say if I should or shouldn't ingest 3 grams of pure coke in one night? (Ok, I'm too far out now)

We all 'deserve' to do what we want with our bodies, un-intrusive to others (this can be argued) so that's exactly what we should do. Living under permission so tight and rigid cannot last. Read some I-Ching, relax. Fight if you feel like fighting. Smoke if you feel like smoking.

I am the fool, walking blindly with joy towards cliffs edge as a dog nips at my heels.

all drugs should be legal.

Really, I didn't mean offense guys. Just that your stance seems to be, "meh, what can I do?" When there are things we can do to fight. Just laying down and letting them decide what you can and cannot do (legally) isn't an option for me.

Good post Lavos, I really do get where you're coming from. The problem is a lot bigger than just this, but we need to set small goals before tackling the larger ones. Keeping a plant like this legal is forefront in my mind. I don't care if they put age restrictions on it, say it can only be sold here or there. I would actually agree with those decisions. But to deny EVERYONE access to it is just wrong.

i am all for keeping it legal, just outlawing the sale of it.

im not laying down... i do my part and then some.

Kava has a ban in by health Canada but you can still get it, hopefully that is what will happen, though it could make importing harder.

The thing is, it doesnt really matter if science and health and religious rights are on our side, that is assuming the government rules by justice, it doesnt, it rules by force and i dont see a few letters changing that.

HOWEVER that does not mean we should do nothing, what this means is that we need to get as many strains and varieties of salvia as possible, we need to get genetic diversity for the underground, make sure that when seeding does occur we have the most stock possible. It also means we need to spread as many clones to as many good growers as we can. We need to prepare to create a kind of basic black market for those who want their own plants at least, thats more important then trying to spread extractions.

We probably still have a year or two before any full law will be put in place, we need to prepare, the drug war just opened up on a new front, we need to make sure this plant is available in the future. Waiting for authorities to tell us whether or not this plant is acceptable for our use is bullshit, it doesnt stop people from doing other psychedelics, we need to make sure that if they go to making it illegal, it will be an unenforceable law.

If you write letters, write to head shops asking them to sell live salvia plants, tell them whats on the go and that we need to get as many plants out there as possible

some humans are so silly

as if you could "ban" nature

You'd think by the 21st century they'd have evolved beyond such absurd ideas

Well I wrote my letter (by hand) and mailed it. I didn't include any scientific articles or references. I just relayed my personal experiences, saying that I suffer from TRD (Treatment-resistant Depression) and that Salvia has been an immense comfort (almost cure) to me for many years now. I basically begged them not to make it illegal, but that I do see the need to control sales of it. My daughter asked some questions when she saw it displayed at a local convenience store a couple years ago, and I don't lie to my child. They were still some hard questions to answer, and I can see people being concerned with the way things are at present. All that said, I have little hope that they will listen.

I'm now thinking along the same lines as Mystic Cannibal, just coming up with as many ways as I can think of to spread this plant around. I'm going to take a couple cuttings and donate them to the local headshop, asking that they at least sell them for a reasonable price. If they sell them quickly enough, I intend to supply them with more rooted cuttings. We do have some time to prepare for (what seems like) the inevitable ban. It's sad that these steps are necessary at all. It would have been great if this plant could have remained legal.

Well, thanks for writing, Dioxippus. We'll see if the effort is futile or not. We have to at least try right? "Conservatives" are in power at the federal level...... well.... we'll see how it goes.

I am finding it very frustrating to write my letter. The arguments pointed out here have made me question what I want to say. I want to speak from the heart, yet as others have pointed out, it will probably fall on deaf ears and uncaring spirits. It really saddens me that I can pour my heart out on paper and I'm imagining someone with the power to wreck my life, reading it and basically saying, "blah blah blah your point of view automatically means nothing because you're just a 'druggie'.

Hey, are there any States out there, in which the distribution of Salvia is more controlled, yet posession of the substance is not a criminal offence? In my letter, I would like to suggest those states as an example alternative to scheduling.

And yes, the spreading of plants will be the most important thing now.

Im still unsure of what to say..but I will be writing a letter..if the right people get it or not is my question. I tried over and over to reach the judge that all the save marc emery things were telling me to reach, never could though..seems these people dont care what we have to say.

So..thank you health canada for failing the rest of us.

The article on the Canada Gazette website http://canadagazette.gc....tml/notice-avis-eng.html suggests a person to contact from the Regulatory Policy Division, Office of Controlled Substances. Does that count as the right person to contact? I'll also be sending a letter to Health Canada.

Isn't salvia divinorum used as a decorative plant as well? I guess it would make it harder to ban a plant if many people are growing it in their garden without even realising what it is. No judge would ever sentence somebody for growing a plant that is commonly grown in gardens.